Friendship crisis

[Phil]

@fopylo

Have you told him you don’t care for him being physical? Are you comfortable with that? Wondering if maybe that is what is difficult.  

[WhiteOwl]

4 hours ago, Phil said:

The way to no longer experience insecurity is to acknowledge, allow and receive the guidance. 

Is allowing and receiving the guidance = feeling? Once "i" feel, or once attention is on feeling, the thoughts that caused the insecurity or whatever feeling, ceases to be, then there is just feeling left. The guidance is to allow feeling since it makes you present? Seems the guidance is like a poke to be more present. 

 

I believed what was meant with  "guidance" was a realization i had to make or understand or something like that in the moment. Its actually just meant to show you to be present and that focus was on unwanted.

 

Does it make any sense? 

Edited July 6, 2023 by WhiteOwl

[Phil]

45 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

Is allowing and receiving the guidance = feeling?

Allowing, receiving & guidance are feeling.

Yes as in already is or are made of feeling, but no in terms of will lead to feeling. Feeling isn’t dual, as in could be turned on & off. Feeling present under certain conditions but not others. Feeling is always present, feeling is presence. Feeling seems to be obscured by the activity of thought, like how during an eclipse the sun seems obscured by the moon. The sun is still ‘on’ & shining perfectly brightly. It isn’t actually obscured at all. It just seems like it is from the perspective of a person on earth. 

 

45 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

Once "i" feel,

There isn’t an I that feels, although there is how that thought feels to feeling. 

45 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

or once attention is on feeling,

Technically attention can’t be put on feeling. The word usage is fine of course, but there’s a subtle underlying discord with the notion. Attention could be regarded as at-tension, or, how the notion that feeling needs attention put on it feels, to feeling. 

45 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

the thoughts that caused the insecurity or whatever feeling, ceases to be, then there is just feeling left.

Yes but thoughts aren’t the cause of emotions, emotions are how thoughts (and beliefs & interpretations) feel. It can seem like once attention is put on feeling that an action or doing has occurred and now there is feeling, as if feeling were a result. Attention is actually withdrawn from the thoughts… so there is the absence of those thoughts… and therein the absence of the discordant emotion, and so just feeling remains. 

45 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

The guidance is to allow feeling since it makes you present? Seems the guidance is like a poke to be more present. 

Guidance is presence & is for the thoughts. 

45 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

I believed what was meant with  "guidance" was a realization i had to make or understand or something like that in the moment. Its actually just meant to show you to be present and that focus was on unwanted.

 

Does it make any sense? 

Yes, totally. Like it was going to happen in the future or some thing. It’s funny that it’s already presence. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 7/6/2023 at 7:48 PM, Phil said:

Oh yes, that does seem most common. The difference seems to be the belief in insecure as a thing someone doesn’t want to feel. The indirect implication of there being a separate thing (insecure) is that one is a separate thing. Whereas insecurity is an emotion, which is not a thing. The suffering is this mental resistance via labelling, not the insecurity per se. Insecurity is guidance. Emotion isn’t evidence of suffering, it’s evidence of love. The way to no longer experience insecurity is to acknowledge, allow and receive the guidance. 

But you asked why we do. We don’t. 

If I understood you correctly, you're talking about the conceptualization of an emotion, right? You say emotion isn't evidence of suffering, it's evidence of love - I'd like you to talk about that more.

Kinda odd to accept there is emotion without the labeling of emotion (which seems to bring suffering?).

On 7/6/2023 at 7:48 PM, Phil said:

Who or what are you talking about - which doesn’t have time and falls asleep? 

Meditation is the way. 

You always hit me with those introspective questions when I talk about meditation. I don't feel like going into those questions now, maybe later. But when you say "daily meditation" I am sure you're meaning "sitting, eyes closed and focusing on the feeling of the breath" - for that I don't have time in the morning. I'm very sensitive in the morning - if I close my eyes for like 1 minute I'll start sleeping, and I don't want that.

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 7/6/2023 at 8:39 PM, Phil said:

Have you told him you don’t care for him being physical?

No. No reason to mention it just like that

 

On 7/6/2023 at 8:39 PM, Phil said:

Are you comfortable with that?

I am ok with that sometimes

[Phil]

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

If I understood you correctly, you're talking about the conceptualization of an emotion, right? You say emotion isn't evidence of suffering, it's evidence of love - I'd like you to talk about that more.

‘I feel powerless’ is a concept about how I feel. It’s about an I. It’s a belief. 

Powerlessness is an emotion that’s felt. It’s about thoughts, beliefs, interpretations, misidentification. It’s guidance in that regard. 

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

Kinda odd to accept there is emotion without the labeling of emotion (which seems to bring suffering?).

That there’s someone who is or isn’t, does or doesn’t accept is a concept. Emotion points to how that concept feels. It feels a pinch off believing there is a chooser in control. 

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

You always hit me with those introspective questions when I talk about meditation. I don't feel like going into those questions now, maybe later. But when you say "daily meditation" I am sure you're meaning "sitting, eyes closed and focusing on the feeling of the breath" - for that I don't have time in the morning. I'm very sensitive in the morning - if I close my eyes for like 1 minute I'll start sleeping, and I don't want that.

You don’t actually know what will happen. It’s the illusion of knowing that is taxing, tiring, draining.

Meditation is the non-way. 🤍 

[fopylo]

@Phil

19 hours ago, Phil said:

‘I feel powerless’ is a concept about how I feel. It’s about an I. It’s a belief. 

Powerlessness is an emotion that’s felt. It’s about thoughts, beliefs, interpretations, misidentification. It’s guidance in that regard. 

I don't think I quite understood... Could you give a more detailed example?

 

19 hours ago, Phil said:

You don’t actually know what will happen. It’s the illusion of knowing that is taxing, tiring, draining.

Meditation is the non-way. 🤍

I learned from experience. I always feel sleepy when I try closing my eyes and focusing on my breath in the morning. Doesn't it make sense to fall back to sleep if you decide to close your eyes for a few minutes right after waking up tired? I'm pretty sure it happens to others as well. It just makes sense to be tired in the morning and more sensitive to fall back to sleep

[Phil]

7 minutes ago, fopylo said:

I don't think I quite understood... Could you give a more detailed example?

If you were swimming in a lake you might say ‘I feel wet’, but really wet isn’t how you feel, it’s how water feels. 

With emotions you might say ‘I feel powerless’, but really powerless isn’t how you feel, it’s how the emotion powerlessness feels.  

 

26 minutes ago, fopylo said:

I learned from experience. I always feel sleepy when I try closing my eyes and focusing on my breath in the morning. Doesn't it make sense to fall back to sleep if you decide to close your eyes for a few minutes right after waking up tired? I'm pretty sure it happens to others as well. It just makes sense to be tired in the morning and more sensitive to fall back to sleep

Exercise first. 

[fopylo]

On 7/9/2023 at 12:41 AM, Phil said:

If you were swimming in a lake you might say ‘I feel wet’, but really wet isn’t how you feel, it’s how water feels. 

With emotions you might say ‘I feel powerless’, but really powerless isn’t how you feel, it’s how the emotion powerlessness feels.  

@Phil

Alright so I guess then also when I say "I feel calm" it isn't a me who feels calm, but rather the the emotion feels calm. How is that useful?

And how does it relate to what you said previously about emotion not being evidence of suffering but rather of love?

On 7/9/2023 at 12:41 AM, Phil said:

On 7/9/2023 at 12:10 AM, fopylo said:

I learned from experience. I always feel sleepy when I try closing my eyes and focusing on my breath in the morning. Doesn't it make sense to fall back to sleep if you decide to close your eyes for a few minutes right after waking up tired? I'm pretty sure it happens to others as well. It just makes sense to be tired in the morning and more sensitive to fall back to sleep

Exercise first. 

Dude I don't have time in the morning

[Phil]

31 minutes ago, fopylo said:

How is that useful?

It isn’t. 🙂

32 minutes ago, fopylo said:

And how does it relate to what you said previously about emotion not being evidence of suffering but rather of love?

It doesn’t. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

I wasn't really trying to be technical here and you gave me very technical answers.

23 hours ago, Phil said:

23 hours ago, fopylo said:

How is that useful?

It isn’t. 🙂

When I asked about its usefulness I am basically asking what's the difference between both ways of going about emotion.

 

I admit that you got me really curious with your saying "emotion isn't evidence of suffering, but rather of love".

How is it evidence of love? I thought you have anger and insecurity on the emotional scale, as well as love.

 

But what about meditation...?

I wake up (usually very tired). I am getting ready quickly, then walking a 20 minute walk to the nearest bus station. Then I take some transportation and I'm like half asleep.

There's no way I can allow myself to close my eyes - I might sleep before I know it. On few occasions I do manage to nap a little, but closing eyes while being awake? - no way man

[Phil]

On 7/9/2023 at 5:56 PM, fopylo said:

Alright so I guess then also when I say "I feel calm" it isn't a me who feels calm, but rather the the emotion feels calm. How is that useful?

Calm is more mind at rest than an emotion felt. ‘How is it useful’ changes the focus from emotion(s) felt, to thoughts about an individual (for whom it’s useful).

 

On 7/9/2023 at 5:56 PM, fopylo said:

And how does it relate to what you said previously about emotion not being evidence of suffering but rather of love?

Love is then obscured by an apparent & illusory experience of a knower knowing that there is a subject (the individual) and an object (love). 

Suffering is this experience of misidentifying as an individual. To the individual love is believed to be dual; love & suffering,  my love & your love, relative love and absolute love, our love & their love, etc. The suffering is believed to be as real as the individual and vice versa. So instead of love, there’s an experience of a knower which knows that there is a a subject & an object. A love story apparently.

 

Just like ice is never actually not water & a movie is never actually not the screen, suffering is never actually not love. But the individual takes that-there-is feeling for granted in its subjectifying & objectifying, believing feeling is finite & plural and emotions are its feelings. Suffering is essentially the desire to be without the individual, which already isn’t present. 

[fopylo]

On 7/11/2023 at 3:51 AM, Phil said:

'How is it useful’ changes the focus from emotion(s) felt, to thoughts about an individual (for whom it’s useful).

@Phil

Why would I want to focus on the emotions felt rather than on an individual (for whom it's useful)?

On 7/11/2023 at 3:51 AM, Phil said:

The suffering is believed to be as real as the individual and vice versa.

Damn that hit.

[Phil]

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

Why would I want to focus on the emotions felt rather than on an individual (for whom it's useful)?

To ‘see’ clearly that the individual is actually the activity of thought about there being an individual. To, as they say, wake up or see reality as it is. To bring an end to suffering. But this is the last thing you would want.