if there is no 'you'..

[almond]

I would like to know if identifying with anything or everything is egoic? Detachment is good but not where it's out of coldness. . 

Is it possible to know the difference ?

 

 

[Mandy]

You know the difference by how it feels. There's no one to identify or to chose not to identify, there's no conflict. 

 

"I like apples." "I like the sound of the rain on the roof." Expression

 

"I feel ignored." Also expression, feeling ignored and believing that you truly are ignored or separate, would be known by the suffering in believing it. 

[almond]

ok, so I feel low self-esteem.

do i believe in it ? no.

i feel misunderstood.

do i believe in it? yes, because of the experiences or past trauma.. it makes me feel like the aforementioned. 

why or describe why do I feel or have this discordant belief :

it's because i feel the need to be free of where i'm at, entirely. I wonder if this has any truth to it either.

things will work out as they always do though.

i just learned what is this expression etc. thank you for the info 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by almond

[Mandy]

You don't feel low self esteem, you feel the guidance of your emotions. 

Low self esteem just points to patterns of thought, believing that you have low self esteem is another reason to have low self esteem and the cycle repeats. The desire there is to be kinder to yourself, to not be so quick to compare, but quick to appreciate. 

 

56 minutes ago, almond said:

it's because i feel the need to be free of where i'm at, entirely. I wonder if this has any truth to it either.

Where you're at, as in "where I think I am" or where I'm at as in, "here now with my butt sitting in this velvet green computer chair (or wherever you are at)."😆

[almond]

haha ha :D

yes i agree.. self-compassion, and thanks..

how do I go up the guidance, I notice i get through 21. and 13 to 8.

[Mandy]

@almond A lot of the emotions such as jealousy, hatred, revenge, anger, we are unwilling to express because we've demonized them or been shamed for them early on. We don't allow ourselves to feel them because we often equate feeling them with being "bad people". That's not the case, but there are very unhealthy and harmful to other's ways of acting upon those emotions. Allowing the expression is the safest most loving thing we can do. The emotional scale also helps us to understand that when someone else blames us, or hates us, that it isn't about us. 

 

Your vibration, or where you are on the scale will rise as long as you aren't believing or giving the thoughts too much attention. For example as long as I truly believe that I feel awful right now because my husband never does the dishes, I'm stuck in blame, he isn't going to ever be inspired to do the dishes while I'm trying to shame him for it, and I'm not going to be willing to drop the subject. But if I'm willing to express worry about not having enough time for my job, and worrying that we won't have enough income or whatever, I'm willing to be more vulnerable, to dig a little deeper, to feel the guidance of my emotions. It's really about willingness. Meditation and directly feeling your body works too. Sometimes there will be resistance to that, and the path of least resistance is expression, like journaling, or talking to someone or telling them how you feel, other times talking feels so resistant, that meditation or a walk in nature, or a good nights sleep is the way to go. Sometimes we get sneaky about locking on a certain technique as the way to feel better in all cases, and there's never that. 

[Phil]

18 hours ago, almond said:

I would like to know if identifying with anything or everything is egoic?

The experience of identifying isn’t egoic, it’s absolutely innocent. 

It’s awareness overlooking awareness is aware (of thoughts), via “knowing”. 

‘Knowing’ is really believing thoughts. 

‘Knowing’ is never actually experienced, the thought is (or isn’t) believed. 

 

There is never an actual identifying, only an apparent & felt experience of believing thoughts. 

The ‘true identity’ so to speak, never changes, and is appearing as, thoughts… including of course the thought ‘I know’. 

The veiling aspect of ‘knowing’ / believing thoughts, either is or isn’t the apparent experience right now. 

There is never a past or future experienced. 

There is never a there experienced. 

There is never a ‘second’ (‘thing’) experienced. 

 

18 hours ago, almond said:

Detachment is good but not where it's out of coldness. . 

There is also no such thing as detachment. Detachment is also a thought (believed or not believed). 

 

To clarify, add in: “the thought“. 

I feel -the thought- low self-esteem.

I feel -the thought- I’m misunderstood. 

I feel -the thought- I’d like to know. 

I feel -the thought- I know / I’m a knower. 

I feel -the thought- there is a past. 

I feel -the thought- detachment. 

 

If anything or everything is known, as anything or everything are actually thoughts… it’s really thoughts are believed, and the discord felt is the underlying implication you’re not awareness of thoughts… but are a separate self, the knower… which knows there is anything or everything, other than, awareness. 

 

For infinite unconditional love (awareness aware)…  there is no ‘second thing’… to know or which could be known. 

Whatever that thought is believed to be, that thought is felt as conditional, as a condition. 

 

18 hours ago, almond said:

Is it possible to know the difference ?

The knower can never know, as the knower is the veiling activity of thought. The belief that there is, a knower. 

 

Why does the inclination to be free of where I’m at arise?

What’s really wanted is being… free of the discord of beliefs (suffering)… of the apparently limiting, seemingly separating belief: ‘I know’.

The good news is this is already the case. This is already free and doesn’t know.

 

 

One way to ‘go from’ 8 to 7 is the recognition of beliefs, including of course the belief in knowing. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Yes.  No self is a specialty on the path not the whole thing.  The other side of the equation is to develop a healthy Self, which is also a specialty on the path.  The highest level you can get to is integration of those and finally liberation which is a working with paradox.  In my experience this is the highest path.  Phil and Mandy take a different attitude than I do about the role of the No Self teaching as you probably can readily see.  But I think it’s important for you to get another point of view.  This is a great thread though to get their unvarnished point of view.  No Self can also be emptied as well as Self.  You’re not going to see that on here most likely though.  The groupthink on here is skewed towards No Self, but I want to chime in and say that that perspective isn’t the only game in town regarding guiding others towards spiritual enlightenment.  That’s a certain vehicle, a certain teaching that can be interpreted differently by guides on the path.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Joseph Maynor

[Jonas Long]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Yes.  No self is a specialty on the path not the whole thing.  The other side of the equation is to develop a healthy Self, which is also a specialty on the path.  The highest level you can get to is integration of those and finally liberation which is a working with paradox.  In my experience this is the highest path.  Phil and Mandy take a different attitude than I do about the role of the No Self teaching as you probably can readily see.  But I think it’s important for you to get another point of view.  This is a great thread though to get their unvarnished point of view.  No Self can also be emptied as well as Self.  You’re not going to see that on here most likely though.  The groupthink on here is skewed towards No Self, but I want to chime in and say that that perspective isn’t the only game in town regarding guiding others towards spiritual enlightenment.  That’s a certain vehicle, a certain teaching that can be interpreted differently by guides on the path.

This is like saying air is only a specialty and not the only game in town.

[Jonas Long]

20 hours ago, almond said:

I would like to know if identifying with anything or everything is egoic? Detachment is good but not where it's out of coldness. . 

Is it possible to know the difference ?

 

 

You cant really identify with anything though, that's the thing.  You'll never realize nonduality or duality.  Lester is a babe in the woods, he'll never get anywhere or attain anything.  I'm not Lester though.  I can't become or ever have the possibility of being him. 

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, Lester Retsel said:

This is like saying air is only a specialty and not the only game in town.

Yes in your mind only Lester.  What do you have to offer as an original idea of your own though?  Why don't you contribute your original ideas that I recall seeing in your videos?  Are you scared?  Serious question.  You have a lot substantively to offer but you don't share it.  That's perplexing to me.  In my opinion you need to start sharing your content.  This might be a better avenue for you than attacking me (nipping at my heels) every post I make.  You attack but don't contribute really anything substantive when you can do this -- I've seen you do this in your videos.  To me this is cowardly.  It's a cheap way to try to gain status without really earning it.  Prove it Lester.  Let's see something from you substantive as to what's being discussed on this forum.  I wonder why you're on here if you're not going to share your teachings.  What's the point?  Love me or hate me I share my teachings without fear on here.  And if I criticize someone I have a reason for doing so and I say what that is when I make the critique.  I wonder why you're holding yourself back.  You are a legit teacher dude on your own merits, show it/show us.  You're opting to tear me down rather than building yourself up.  I don't know how that is going to help you or anyone.  I don't take your heel-nipping of me seriously anymore.  The gig is old.  Time for a new approach from you.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Joseph Maynor

[Jonas Long]

9 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Yes in your mind only Lester.  What do you have to offer as an original idea of your own though?  Why don't you contribute your original ideas that I recall seeing in your videos?  Are you scared?  Serious question.  You have a lot to offer but you don't share it.  That's perplexing to me.  In my opinion you need to start sharing your content.  This might be a better avenue for you than attacking me (nipping at my heels) every post I make.  You attack but don't contribute really anything substantive when you can do this -- I've seen you do this in your videos.  To me this is cowardly.  It's a cheap way to try to gain status without really earning it.  Prove it Lester.  Let's see something from you substantive as to what's being discussed on this forum.  I wonder why you're on here if you're not going to share your teachings.  What's the point?  

I have nothing to prove.  I'm not here to promote myself.  People can watch my videos if they want, they're there.  I actually think I am sharing value with what I say here, just trying to be as succinct as possible.

[Joseph Maynor]

8 minutes ago, Lester Retsel said:

I have nothing to prove.  I'm not here to promote myself.  People can watch my videos if they want, they're there.  I actually think I am sharing value with what I say here, just trying to be as succinct as possible.

 

What happened to your YouTube channel?  I can't find your videos.  You had some good content.   I wanted to post one of your videos so people can see that.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Joseph Maynor

[Jonas Long]

28 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

 

What happened to your YouTube channel?  I can't find your videos.  You had some good content.   I wanted to post one of your videos so people can see that.

I changed the name. It's jonas long.  I can't change my username here.

 

[Phil]

@Lester Retsel

If you ever want me to change it just let me know. Pretty sure that’s possible. 

 

@Joseph Maynor

Phil, Mandy & Lester are thoughts which don’t define perception. 

[Jonas Long]

Just now, Phil said:

@Lester Retsel

If you ever want me to change it just let me know. Pretty sure that’s possible. 

Sure, you can change it to Jonas Long if it's an easy switch

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Jonas Long said:

I'm not Lester though.

Seems extra-true now.

😂 

[Jonas Long]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

Seems extra-true now.

😂

I'm not jonas either though lol 

[Jonas Long]

 

 

[Mandy]

@Jonas Long Nice to meet you Jonas.