Aware Wolf

@Orb My .02 is that it's fine. I don't believe in LoA either. LoA isn't mandatory for awakening.I think some Neti-Neti (not this, not this) practice is useful on the path. You've found LoA is "Not This". This is good. That's fine. I had a bit of wariness that you might be trusting the guru Anna a bit too much here -- Anna has her awakening and a framework for it. Does it fit for you? I don't know. She says awakening is freedom from desire -- but does it work that way for everyone? And the word desire is ill defined. Is Anna saying she doesn't have any desires, wishes, preferences, or wants? How does she go to the bathroom when she feels pressure in the bowels? Does she then have a desire to make it to the bathroom or does she poop whereever, you know the whole New Age Nondualist thing "Poop just happens. There is no pooper." But for you, @Orb, the big question is what is your Path? What are you doing to wake up? What is your practice? The Buddha said there are 68K dharma doors. I have a feeling, and I could be wrong here, is that you're drifting.

Most people fear death at least a little. But how debalitating is this fear for you? Does it affect your life and relationships? You mention you have panic attacks.

This. At least rule out a physical cause. I had a friend who was going through a dark period. His guru said it was bad energy. Nope. It was Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever turns out. If there's no physical cause, then you have to be a detective. If it's worse reading, perhaps it could be eye strain. Does relaxing your eyes, lying down with your eyes closed help any?

I don't think I ever say self realization are these things. That's not my point. I'm addressing LoA, or I thought I was. I bring up karma and praying for example, because these are theories on why things manifest. Since this is LoA thread , it's apropos. I bring up using your intelligence, because, as I wrote, this is the perspective Advaita Vedanta takes for realizing moksha. this is in response to all the LoA who don't think logic, reasoning, and intelligence is of much use on the Path. In Advaita Vedanta, it's in fact key. To be clear I am not saying that it's required as the only path, instead I'm giving different perspectives. Of which LoA is one. It's just a perspective. It's a bit different because LoA claims to have a magical real world effect. Our desires, wishes, work upon some vortex and it manifests. wishful thinking. magical thinking. The Law of Attraction isn't a law -- it's just a point of view. It's just a perspective. That sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. "Loa helps reveal to one, what one is focusing upon. " -- I agree this can be useful. But we don't even have to call it LoA. We could call it reflection or practicing insight. What then when we realize we're focusing on a sensual desire? Where do we go to from there? Do we make a vision board for three somes and blowies? Is that the limit to our spiritual quest? If someone indeed gets the threesomes of their dreams -- bully for them. But can I do it and will it work for me? It's a law, right, an immutable law? The fact is, some people do indeed get what they desire. Many don't. As @Adeptus Psychonauticapointed out, there's been many parents of sick children who earnestly and sincerely wished their child to be healthy and instead their child got sicker and died. The LoA makes a claim that it can't back up. I've challenged people here to test it, you have a YouTube channel, manifest a big increase in subscriber account and let's see what happens in the next month. You decide though. Instead, when the challenge is offered, there's only ancedotal evidence offered, or that intelligence, logic, and reasoning isn't all that it's cracked up to be, and the only way to realize the truth of loa is to experience it for yourself. Weak. As I've countered elsewhere. It wont work for me because deep down I don't want it to work -- which is evidence of LoA working ! Anddddd after the threesome, there's possibly a letdown. The post orgasm bliss doesn't last forever. The Buddha left his home after a big party. Can wisely looking at desires be beneficial? Sure. But is that really what the LoA is about ?? And even if your sensual desires are somehow fulfilled (lucky you!) -- you're still stuck. Look at all the rock stars who killed themselves at a young age while appearing to have everything.

@Mandy mentioned what some people think about Law of Attraction. I thought I’d collect some parts. I also include besides desire, which is a big part of LoA, also intelligence, logic, reasoning and it’s purported role in liberation. What does Rupert Spira think of Law of Attraction? We have a video on YouTube where Rupert talks about LoA. He says LoA is not part of his teaching, nor is it part of nonduality. He finds a way to include LoA but this seems to me a polite way of engaging the questioner. He mentions LoA was only because he’s friends with Rhonda Byrne (author of The Secret!) – and that she’s moved on from Law of Attraction. Huh. Interesting. One of the biggest proponents of Law of Attraction has moved on from it, according to Rupert. “The Law of Attraction never really attracted me as an idea” – Rupert Spira. * From the Dalai Lama: “You won’t achieve your goals just by reciting mantras,” he said, “it’s only by revealing reality that the Buddhas indicate the way to liberation. We have 100 volumes of the Kangyur and 220 volumes of the Tengyur; these are texts to study. The aim of the teaching is that we transform ourselves within. This requires study and means we have to use our intelligence.” * From the Buddha’s Key Sutta on Dependent Origination: Things happen because of causes and conditions. When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. In another sutta, the Buddha said: Householder, these five things that are likable, desirable, and agreeable are hard to get in the world. What five? Long life, beauty, happiness, fame, and heaven. These are the five things that are likable, desirable, and agreeable, but hard to get in the world. And I say that these five things are not got by praying or wishing for them. If they were, who would lack them -- The Buddha AN 5.43: Iṭṭhasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato * From Tenzin Palmo, a well known Buddhist nun told me: Even if Law of Attraction works, you’re still stuck in the world of samsara. * If you want a chicken to be a duck, and a duck to be a chicken, you will suffer. -- Ajahn Chah * Advaita Vedanta How does one handle desire? There’s the desire for moksha (liberation) and there’s desires for new cars, money, and a hot girlfriend. Most religions, not just Advaita Vedanta, try to make people wary of sensual desires. Many religions have a renunciant path. Advaita Vedanta see the root problem as ignorance and teachings and education that remove this ignorance as leading to liberation. Stoicism “The faculty of desire purports to aim at securing what you want…If you fail in your desire, you are unfortunate, if you experience what you would rather avoid you are unhappy…For desire, suspend it completely for now. Because if you desire something outside your control, you are bound to be disappointed; and even things we do control, which under other circumstances would be deserving of our desire, are not yet within our power to attain. Restrict yourself to choice and refusal; and exercise them carefully, within discipline and detachment.” —Epictetus From Science or Psychology – any support for Law of Attraction? Nope. They hate it. It’s referred to as “pseudo-science” * Now I’m going to switch gears. Are there any cases where practicing Law of Attraction would be beneficial? I think certainly. Also we have to be clear, there’s different interpretations of LoA as shown in this thread. If you believe you will be successful in that job interview, or pickup at a gym, or selling your company’s product – this positive attitude and confidence can surely help. If you have a desire to be brave – and you challenge yourself here – and try to be brave – voila – you’re liable to have success. If you want love, or if you value love, and try to be kind, compassionate, loving person, you’re liable to find love is in your life. It may not attract a soulmate – but you’re liable to find that’s only a small subset of what love is or can be. If being a person of integrity is important to you, and you practice this – again, voila, you’re liable to be a person of integrity. I heard a saying, Let go and Let God! Assume you’ve done everything you can for your small business from a causes and conditions point of view. Instead of worrying about it and raising your stress, you leave it to God. Or the Universe as in LoA. This could be beneficial. Although there's different perspectives here too, and one could take a stoic perspective and just let go of things outside of your control. Although there's downsides for LoA in business. In a small business I was employed at once, the President of the company said, if we believe we can sell these computers -- we can sell them. We had some company meeting that were like pep rallies. If you can't get onboard with the team, they said, maybe you should find another team. Some people did. Now on the surface, we were buying computer parts at VAR pricing, putting them together, and trying to sell at a profit to VARS (value added resellers). How can this possibly work? You can believe whatever you want to believe -- but VARs aren't stupid and they know the cost of our computer is more than double what they can build one for. Few people purchased it. Mass company layoffs and eventually the company got bought out. I remember sitting with other lower deck employees and one of them saying, "There's no way the leaders of this company could be this stupid, could they?" -- and whenever this is asked 99% of the time, the answer is yes they really can be this stupid.

In cults, when a person brings up concerns and/or inconvenient facts, often the response is something like: The person complaining is the blame. In NXIVM they are at cause. If you're voicing a concern about something -- see how you're manifesting it. Or it's your karma that it's an issue with you. At Tushita Center, a Buddha dharma center in India, they said the reason why some nuns were bitten by monkeys (and some nuns not) was because of their monkey karma. Or if it's guru word-salad, or simply bullshit -- the person pointing this out isn't at a high enough level to judge. Only an arahant can judge another arahant. Common is to denigrate logic and reasoning. You're thinking with your head, instead think with the heart. Maybe instead of instigating a financial audit of the guru's exorbitant travel expenses, you should pray about it. What does your heart say about gifts to the guru? Give up "facts" and come to guru - bliss! I see this pattern with many posts vs. @Adeptus Psychonautica This thread is ostensibly about Law of Attraction. Not Adeptus projecting or being so base he can't grasp the spiritual truth of LoA.

@WhiteOwl and @Adeptus Psychonautica Serious here. Not trolling. I see multiple references to a Phil post that is described as brilliant (or not) or "greatest hits". I don't know which post you're talking about. Give me a link or a hint here. Thank you. Also, cool that you guys might chat online. ** UPDATE Found it! Page 6 near bottom , this thread.

Well your mileage may vary. But I run into Mind Only types quite bit. The everything is illusion crowd. "There is no self" gang. Everything arises from our own consciousness! "Bus" is just a thought! There's Leo, Connor Murphy, Arianna, etc. -- there's a ton of people on YouTube. I believe Leo had a scandal after someone killed themselves after receiving these type of teachings which reject duality or a common reality. You're right there shouldn't be a need to argue this. One of the signs of a cult is opposing critical thinking. There indeed is a bus and there is covid -- but how many people rejected vaccines because of delusion? It's interesting you use a job as an example, In a New York Times critical review of LoA, they use getting a job as an example: The intuitive appeal of such stories illustrates the human tendency to see things that happen in sequence — first the positive thinking, then the positive results — as forming a chain of cause and effect. This is even more likely to happen when all the stories we hear fit an expected pattern, a phenomenon psychologists call “illusory correlation.” If we hear only about the crazy coincidences (“I was thinking about getting the job offer, and right then I got the call!”), not the unconnected events (“I thought about getting the offer, but it never came” or “I wasn’t thinking about the offer, then I got it”) or even the nonevents (“I didn’t think I would get the offer, and indeed I didn’t get it”), then we get a distorted picture. Even worse, we can misremember two things as happening in close succession when in fact they happened much farther apart in time, or even in the reverse order. When Byrne tells her readers to “make a connection” between the good things they do and the good things that come to them, she is focusing their attention on positive examples of the law of attraction, thereby reinforcing the illusion that it actually works. The powerful psychology behind these rhetorical tricks can distract readers from the larger illogic of ­Byrne’s books. What if a thousand people started sincerely visualizing winning the entire $200 million prize in this week’s Lotto? How would the universe sort out that mess? But it’s useless to argue with books like “The Secret” and “The Power.” They demonstrate an exquisite grasp of the reality of human nature. After all, the only other force that could explain how Rhonda Byrne put two books on top of the best-seller list is the law of attraction itself. Thank you too. Congrats on the job too!

Okay. Let's grant that he does this. What have we gained? This is an argument from authority. I could counter most spiritual masters I've read give no truck to LoA. If it's a universal truth, an immutable law, one might think more masters would teach it. All of them. Nisargadatta is usually labeled as a Advaitin Vedantan. Traditionally Advaita Vedanta would have no truck with law of attraction. Most people when they hear Law of Attraction, think The Secret and think of it as Californian New Age wishful thinking. They've got their crystals out going over their astrology charts. So memory, binding, continuation are what ? They are mind, and in direct experience they are no mind? -- you're losing me. I don't think you've considered mind enough. Acceding to there is a mind, thought, continuity, binding, etc -- isn't being in the matrix at all. It's seeing things as they are. i don't know where you're going with this either, but if you're trying to say, memory, continuity, and binding -- are just thoughts -- I don't know what to say. We're going down a rabbit hole where nothing outside can ever be real -- because it's all just thoughts. It's nihilistic. Not everything in the mind is just passing thought. Nor should it be passed off as just passing thought. We've got a mind and it can be useful to reason things out. We do this all the time. When you drive, you reason things out. You don't pull out in front of a bus with nothing to spare. You may reason that running a red light isn't wise. There's no color, there's no red, and there's no self. Sure. But don't routinely run red lights. Although sure again, thinking that running a red light is a bad idea -- is just a thought. If our root problem is ignorance, then reason / logic can certainly be the way out of our delusion. This is what Advaita Vedanta seeks to do. To seek to look beyond any logic can be a pitfall. It has to be done appropriately. Logic and reasoning tells me that Leo is not a god. Logic and reasoning tell me that Leo cannot cure all world diseases. Logic and reasoning tells me that you cannot manifest everything you desire. You're probably with me on two of these three. If somone makes a claim, they should be able to back it up. Leo couldn't. Claims presented without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. One of the red flags of cults is getting people not to question, not to reason, and allude there's a higher truth that what can be reasoned. Facts no longer matter -- people that bring up inconvenient facts are brought down -- that it's not a fact at all -- you're only thinking thoughts about a belief that something is a fact. It's nonduality gaslighting.

I want to bring up a story where I tried LoA and enlisted @Mandy's help and it worked. My favorite basketball team was playing Gonzaga in March Madness, Arkansas was a double digit underdog. No commentator was picking Arkansas to win. I asked Mandy to LoA Arkansas winning and congratulating Arkansas on it's victory. I said if Arkansas won, I wouldn't slag off LoA anymore. I realized that this might be tough, really tough, as LoA is so eminently slaggable, so I put a time limit on it (for one month). It was a close and exciting game. In a touch & go fourth quarter, I even asked Mandy to exert a little more LoA vortex or whatever you delusional f*cks believe because it was a one possession game and the lead was changing hands. Arkansas won! Ya, Arkansas and LoA ! The next game was vs. Duke and I thought about asking Mandy again, but I didn't want to bother her. Arkansas lost this game. So, @Adeptus Psychonauticahere's my evidence. ** I also asked for this Hollywood starlet to be my gf. But so far, it hasn't happened. I did see she got married and has had a kid since then.

Does Nisargadatta claim anything like LoA? Adyashanti might have a book, The End of Your World -- but that's about post awakening practice. It doesn't mean there's no world. He doesn't mean that. It's absurd. I can't prove LoA. like I am challenged to (seek LoA in your own personal experience!) -- because I want to prove it wrong. So it won't work for me. Nice. Even though I've said, I'm willing to be fair and try. I'd love to win the lottery or have Scarlet Johanssen be my girlfriend. Or just a big check in the mail next week and finding my soulmate is cool too. I've challenged LoA advocates here to put into place some test, but no one seems interested, including yourself. I don't say there's no you. Yes, it's a cliche. What I say is what the Dalai Lama also says, there's no self like we think there is. There's no CEO self running everything and making all the decisions. Neurologists and brain scientists would agree here. Often modern research shows there's no CEO self, but scientists don't go as far to say there's no self. There's memory, continuity, and binding. There's may be no fixed self, but there's a construct. Yes, I believe anyone who self investigates / meditates -- can -- and SHOULD see that there's something there. Memory, binding, continuity, etc -- are hardly nothing, are they? So it's misleading to say, There is no self. What I might say is there are different perspectives here regarding self and selfness. What I might draw out is perspectives towards the self held by Buddhists, and Advaitins. So you're wrong that it's annoying to me because as you say, To the person who keeps repeating/believing/thinking their own logic, a cliché would be particularly annoying. It really is annoying beause it's just one perspective, and often the people shouting it, are ignorant of other perspectives, and think they've found the one, sole, Truth (copyright). I'm not a fan of the logic that in an argument, says, I cannot be right --because -- because -- wait for it -- there is no "I". This is like the Jeff Foster's nondual bears.There's a bus? I can't possibly right here because "I" don't exist. Sigh. Does this also go for you and your beliefs? Your beliefs can't possibly be right because there is NO MANDY ?? Just asking questions.

@Mandy Heaven's Gate had a lot of brilliant and loving people in it. A lot of cults are full of love. There's beliefs like LoA that can make a person feel good, feel empowered, feel the Universe is looking out for them. A lot of religions have a magic feather. All of them say and challenge people to see for themselves. As Jesus said, Come and see. There's a placebo effect. I like AA well enough -- but I"m also aware that studies challenge it's efficacy. There's a lot of beliefs and a framework around AA. AA can be considered a cult, fair enough, but it's a fairly healthy cult from what I'm aware of. I don't know of any religion that doesn't have delusions in it, and that includes nonduality. We should be skeptical. We should examine our assumptions and our own beliefs. What are we stuck by? What mousetrap holds us? In Zen, there's a Gateless Gate -- are there more gates for us? The biggest gate might be the gate we don't see. If we're in a prison cell, but our is decorated, we have a blender for smoothies, and cable tv -- while we point out the fundamentalists flaws and weaknesses. -- and we don't realize that we're in prison too. Just a bit nicer one, with perhaps less suffering.

The thing is, we don't ask if Stoicism or Zen has any real world effects. Stoicism emphasizes it's a mistake to want something that is out of our control. Zen says zazen meditation is good for nothing. A lot of Buddhism seems to put desire as a large cause of suffering. We want what we don't have and we often don't want what we have. @Mandy's version of LoA seems to me to be seeking a healthy balance for not feeling guilty over a desire. Repressing desires can be spiritual bypassing. The question if Stoicism or Zen is true -- is not really the best question to ask here. LoA is doesn't have such a cautionary approach to desires. It's often portrayed as full blown wishful thinking. It's a hall pass for every desire a person might have. Perusing Youtube I found: Oprah Winfrey | How to Manifest Anything You Want ( Law Of Attraction) Abraham Hicks ~ Your Soulmate Will Enter Your Life - By Law Of Attraction Manifest Money ONLY after learning this (law of attraction) Say These 6 Words And Get Exactly What You Want | Law of Attraction The Law of Attraction - Manifest while you Sleep Meditation What differs LoA from Zen or stoicism is that LoA makes a claim that it can affect the real world through it's mechanism of "like attracts like". So LoA should be fair game. If it can affect the world, it can be measured. I had an office mate once who was a Mormon. After a few mohths and after becoming friends, I asked him if I could ask him questions about Mormonism. He agreed. So I asked about the Book of the Dead Egyptian papyrii that was translated by Smith wrong. I asked about the rampant plagarism in the Book of the Mormon (including mistranslations in King James also in Book of Mormon), along with some other tough questions. He didn't have an answer. But he said the Book of Mormon is the only book that guarantees if one prays about it -- one will get an answer on it's authenticity. Evidently people pray on it and get a message or feeling from God that the Book of Mormon is true. Thoughts are just thoughts. Feelings are just feelings. They delude us all the time. LoA makes a real world claim -- so put it to the test. Tell your stories. I thought my friend, who received free lunches for that week after asking for it, was interesting. Although when I tried it, there were no free lunches. Sam Harris says we should want our beliefs to be true and that basically the closer our beliefs map onto Reality, the less we'll be bumping into hard objects. We should constantly be checking for new evidence and better arguments. Harris says one of the best ways to do this is by having conversations with other people. We have to be open to others pointing out errors and Harris emphasizes we have to be open to the idea we could be wrong and that we're likely to be wrong a lot of the time @Adeptus Psychonautica isn't out of line here. Prove it. And that's not asking him to prove it. You should be able to do so -- if LoA works. Are you going to get everything you want, like Oprah says, with LoA? Not bloody likely. Try it for yourself. What happens when it doesn't work? Is it because: 1) It wasn't your true desire 2) You can't create lack; 3) You must truly believe. Or like @Orbtold me, I don't really want LoA to work, so by it not working, LoA works! Ask for a Porsche to be manifested and next week post a photo here when it happens. Or if that's not up your alley, something -- something -- that is measurable and dramatic not to have just happened randomly. Your YouTube channel sub doubling next month (without doing anything special to increase sub count). Don't have a YouTube channel, manifest some money. Post a photo of the surprise check you receive. I use the bus analogy a lot. I believe a lot of people often go overboard on the whole nonduality / NO Self thing. If your nonduality doesn't include duality, it is incomplete. I'm careful that I say that reality is like an illusion. I don't say reality IS an illusion. We mistake the rope for the snake, and there may indeed be no snake, but that doesn't mean there's not a rope. Colors, say neurologists, may not truly exist either, and I'm with nondualists who say that what I'm seeing in that big red double decker bus barreling towards me, is not an accurate representation of reality. But it's good enough to not walk in front of. The Zen oxherding pictures express Emptiness beautifully with the Zen circle. There is no ox, no man. But in the tenth picture, there's a Return to the Marketplace. In Zen, you integrate your practice into the world. In Scott Carney's excellent book about a death on a Buddhist retreat, Death on Diamond Mountain, he begins by telling a tragic story of a young woman he knew, who was a student in a study Away International program, in Bodhgaya India and received teachings on Bodhicitta and Bodhisattvas from the FPMT. FPMT is a legit group and offers top-notch courses in Buddhism. The young woman killed herself by jumping from a roof of one of the buildings. She left behind a note, "I am a Bodhisattva.". Perhaps some teachings should come with a warning. Taking a page from Dr. Strangelove, "How I learned to stop nonduality posing and love duality." There's a beauty to the Heart Sutra and nonduality. I like the movie The Matrix, and it's even true, when the kid says, There is no spoon! -- but there is a bus.

Is it a law ? There's the *Law* of Attraction. That which is like unto itself is drawn.The law of attraction is a philosophy suggesting that positive thoughts bring positive results into a person's life, while negative thoughts bring negative outcomes. It is based on the belief that thoughts are a form of energy and that positive energy attracts success in all areas of life, including health, finances, and relationships. There's also Alan Watt's Backwards Law: the backwards law proposes that the more we pursue something, the more we achieve the opposite of what we truly want and the more disappointed we feel. -- I give the example of someone desparately seeking a soulmate and spouse. This desperation scares many partners away. On the other hand, we've all known people getting out of a relationship and say they'll swear off any relationship -- and the odds increase dramatically they'll wind up married within a year. There's the Stockdale Paradox: have the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be while maintaining faith that in the end, no matter how long it takes, you will prevail. There's Tong Len practice -- which is a very powerful practice. Tong Len is taking on other's suffering and pain. An advanced practitioner might take on cancer. Interestingly, @Mandyhas a video on her channel on Tong Len. It's unusual for LoA advocates to also practice Tong Len as Tong Len is taking on what you do not want. Taking on another's cancer -- which I suppose is a negative thought and would scare a lot of people -- is a valid spiritual practice which is in direct contrast to LoA. In Tibet, Tong Len as part of LoJong practice was known as a miracle practice and was known for curing lepers. You might practice LoA and see results. You might also practice Tong Len which is diametrically in contrast to LoA and also see results. You could also practice Stoicism and Equanimity and give up on desiring any certain outcome especially those outside of your own control.

@Orb I'm happy you found something that made you feel better. I just hear from every faith and creed, from Mormons to Satanists to the latest Guru -- that they know it's true because of how they feel and they just know it is the Truth. So did Heaven's Gaters. They were absolutely convinced of the truth of what they were following that they mass suicided. The Truth of the Heaven's Gaters was that there was a next level and by suiciding they would hitch a ride on a spaceship that was in the tail end of the comet Hale-Bopp. But is this True? Is there any evidence? If you asked these Heaven's Gaters, hours before their tragic departure these questions, one might receive similar answers one receives from LoA advocates. Detractors don't understand it, they're at a lower level, they look for proof but what proof did Jesus give when asked? One of the key insights is that thoughts can just be thoughts. Feelings can just be feelings. They can delude us, just as they did for the Manson Girls and the Heaven's Gaters.

@Orb "Whether you believe in LoA or not doesnt matter, it is always operating, such that when you want evidence that it isnt true you will be proved right and vice versa." This is convenient. Even when it's pointed out LoA doesn't work -- it's evidence of it working. Nice! There's a popular saying: Not Even Wrong -- and this now could be applied to LoA. As it is impossible to disprove it. It can't be wrong. Not Even.

I hate to almost do this, sometimes I'm tempted to offer to test people who make claims that crystals have power and that discerning people can feel a crystal's power. But it probably wouldn't go over well. They're most likely not at all interested in being tested. Huh. So, if Law of Attraction really is a law and works and has an effect in the real world, then it can be measured and tested. How would one do this? Suggest a legit test that can be done here. Let's put LoA to the test! If I might suggest, if I win a huge lottery prize, without buying a ticket -- I'll be a LoA fanboy. The Universe would have to vortex a lottery ticket on the ground that I pickup. Or how about a soulmate another common LoA wish. I meet my soulmate this next week. Phil writes: Another way to look at it, what would you say to someone who wrote and received all of that? Sometimes people pray and get what they want, Sometimes people pray and are healed. There's fanboys and fangirls of every religion who contend that prayer works. However a NIH study showed no effect of prayer on healing (except people that were prayed for, did slightly worse). God doesn't seem to have any interest though in healing amputees! See the interesting website: https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/ As @Mandypoints out, Jesus was very LoA. Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Damien Echols was a magick practitioner and visualized himself walking out of death row jail cell. Interestingly, he did. No retrial which I thought was the best that might be hoped for. The State just let him go. I've never heard of this happening before. Interesting. I don't know how it worked, but good for him. I don't know, but there's probably a lot of other prisoners now visualizing frantically and with dream boards that are not walking out. Also, I don't know if this is even relevant, but Damien Echols had some really top-notch lawyers. I know a LoA fan and she told me she tested LoA by asking that lunch be provided for her for the next week at no cost to her. And for different reasons, at work, she received free lunches. Cool. I have friends too that have haunted house stories. I enjoy hearing them. She asked about LoA to the nun Tenzin Palmo, and Tenzin Palmo's answer was even IF LoA worked-- and you attract what you want, you're still stuck in the world of samsara. By the way, I tried her lunch test and didn't receive any free lunches. My view is that the Universe doesn't give a G--Damn what you want or desire. There's opposite views to LoA, such as Alan Watts Backwards Law that work just as well, maybe better. There's the Stockdale Paradox which was field tested in harsh POW jail cells of Vietnam which contends one must take into account all the harsh factors of reality. I'd like one instance where something desired was achieved without the causes and conditions for it -- and it's reproducible. Someone may desire financial stability and receive a random check from an unpaid loan from ten years ago, now forgotten. Cool especially if it happens for you, but if I try to duplicate it -- there's very very likely to be no check in the mail. I suppose one could put the blame on me for lack of checks, and getting no free lunches -.... In a sutta, the Buddha said: Householder, these five things that are likable, desirable, and agreeable are hard to get in the world. What five? Long life, beauty, happiness, fame, and heaven. These are the five things that are likable, desirable, and agreeable, but hard to get in the world. And I say that these five things are not got by praying or wishing for them. If they were, who would lack them -- The Buddha AN 5.43: Iṭṭhasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato

There's something to this. If it works, it works. On the other hand, there's a long long list of cults and gurus not only in spiritual centers, but also businesses and other hierarchies. See documentaries about Uber, Theranos, and Bad Vegan among the recent documentaries I've seen where a business was run like a cult. One red flag is LoA, where Your Mind Determines Reality thinking. It's a delusion that could be useful. Sometimes confidence can be useful as in selling professions and in meeting people and pickup. Visualization can help in performance of a task. See AA for example as a cult, that helps a lot of people. Sometimes things go well, or well enough despite delusions. Or it takes time before cracks start appearing. You can ignore reality sometimes without any cost. I think the creationists who reject evolution are in this camp. There's literally no cost to them or any inconvenience. In fact, it may be that it places in the in-group in their religious group. On the other hand, there are anti-vaxxers who've literally died for their beliefs. Sometimes bumping into reality can be really hard.

@Mandy No I truly have the heartfelt desire to be Miss America.

@Mandy I like what you write and it makes sense. @Adeptus Psychonauticamakes a point that your version of LoA is more sensible than what I hear from many people and many YouTube videos. Mandy writes: "When I want something and don't resist it, it comes." I have trouble with this. I'd say obviously you cannot get or achieve everything you might want. There has to be causes and conditions. It's impossible (or not very bloody likely) for me to win the Miss America contest no matter how much I don't resist it. I feel bad writing "obviously" because although wish fultullment is obviously not going to happen in my framework -- to many in the LoA community -- it's not so obvious at all. There's no common ground because of vastly different assumptions. They seem to believe in some magical wish-fulfilling vortex, while I do not. Mandy writes: "I cannot get rid of a headache by thinking about how horrible it is, and I cannot make $1000 while looking at my empty wallet. " But doesn't LoA advertise in fact that you can manifest wealth, health, and soul mates? I think @Mandyversion of LoA of looking deeply at desire and not shunning desire as bad (which is good as that's spiritual bypassing) is fine and good. If you want to manifest a million dollars and make a vision board -- it won't get you far unless you have causes and conditions in your life like investments or rich relatives. If you use the desire to look at that perhaps you want financial stability and put into play steps to become more financially stable (paying off high interest credit cards, saving, being more frugal, gearing down for a more affordable lifestyle, etc.) -- than I think this makes a lot of sense. But is that even LoA anymore?

I just watched this CNN documentary, "Enlighten Us" about James Arthur Ray. James Ray was an Oprah-approved teacher who taught LoA and was on the hit video "The Secret". In 2009, three people died in a sweat lodge in an event hosted by Ray. Ray did two years of prison. Although it was an accident, no one meant for anyone to die, at one point a participant was nonresponsive and not breathing and James Ray told his students to leave them until the next round. That was all on him, said one of the prosecutors. I'm not blaming LoA here. But it's part of the environment. Untrained, unlicensed, unprofessional teachers can master LoA and nonduality in a short amount of time and hang out a teaching shingle. In the documentary, the seminars by James Ray and Tony Robbins look like pep rallies. People shouting, cheering, pumping their fists, jumping up and down. I think it's emotionally provoking -- but towards what end and how long lasting is this adreneline crowd boost? There's board breaking, walking on coals, putting your hand in a glass tank full of snakes, and .... a sweat lodge. Walking on coals is akin to a magic trick. It's scientifically not a big deal. You don't need to have some super mind control to not be burned. Putting your hand into a glass tank full of peaceful kingsnakes and pet snakes isn't a big deal if you're not afraid of snakes. If you want a chicken to be a duck, and a duck to be a chicken -- you'll suffer, says Ajahn Chah. If you want your income to double within the year and meet your soulmate and you raise your vibrational level to attract it. Well. I don't know quite what to say. Maybe that it's just wishful thinking? Like a Polish saying, if you shit in one hand and wish in another, see which one fulls up first. It's interesting to me these myriad documentaries on gurus and cults and how they go bad. There's often a fine line between the red flags put out by these gurus and cults and what you hear everyday in spiritual centers. Like LoA is how your mind determines your reality. There might be truth to this, but i use a bus as a warning here too -- there's the reality of the bus and you need to respect that. It may be true that things are like an illusion, and there is no self -- but there is a bus. If you want to get in a reality war , your version vs. the bus's version of reality -- it's likely to not turn out well for you. I like the Stockdale Paradox: you must be willing to confront the brutal facts of your current reality, even as you maintain unwavering faith that you will prevail in the end I've talked with @Mandyabout this and she has a different take on LoA than the Secret. My questions here are: Do you believe and practice LoA? How do you see LoA working? How has it worked for you? What do you think when you want something and practice and the thing does not happen? (counter evidence?) Is LoA something that has to be taken on faith?

@bardh You had me there. But then there's no crazy sh*t that people won't say spiritually. There's a guy on YouTube who claims he's God and can cure all disease.

You're wise to be wary of spiritual teachers and teachings. I often say it's Buyer Beware in the spiritual marketplace. And that one must do their due diligence. Google prospective teachers, centers, and ashrams and see what's out there. We should be wary of spiritual attainments and claims. If someone has special powers or siddhis -- prove it. If someone claims to have no thoughts -- it's brilliant because it's practically impossible to prove or disprove. The spiritual conman is in a good business because there's no vetting. Anyone can claim anything, anything at all. As Christopher Hitchens says, claims presented without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. But I want to add here it is hardly just Zen masters who've sexually abused people. It's all of them. Catholics priests, Yoga teachers, Hindu gurus, Tibetan Buddhist gurus, Theravadan monks, Christian youth counselors, New Age teachers, etc etc. If you're worried about this, just don't put all your eggs into one teacher without really being sure. This is why I recommend exploring with different teachers and different traditions. Also use Google to check teachers out. We can learn from others but we don't have to give up our own authority to anyone. We are in a golden age of media. Audios from a legit teacher are widely available. There's classic spiritual books online or available as ebooks.

I like the following excerpt from Sam Harris's book Waking Up: * On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita Vedanta was in the room when we received our first teachings from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, who was generally thought to be one of the greatest living Dzogchen masters. Of all the Buddhist teachings, those of Dzogchen most closely resemble the teachings of Advaita. The two traditions seek to provoke the same insight into the nonduality of consciousness, but, generally speaking, only Dzogchen makes it absolutely clear that one must practice this insight to the point of stability and that one can do so without succumbing to the dualistic striving that haunts most other paths. At a certain point in our discussions with Tulku Urgyen, our Swiss prodigy declared her boundless freedom in terms similar to those she had used to such great effect with Poonja-ji. After a few highly amusing exchanges, during which we watched Tulku Urgyen struggle to understand what our translator was telling him, he gave a short laugh and looked the woman over with renewed interest. “How long has it been since you were last lost in thought?” he asked. “I haven’t had any thoughts for over a week,” the woman replied. Tulku Urgyen smiled. “A week?” “Yes.” “No thoughts?” “No, my mind is completely still. It’s just pure consciousness.” “That’s very interesting. Okay, so this is what is going to happen now: We are all going to wait for you to have your next thought. There’s no hurry. We are all very patient people. We are just going to sit here and wait. Please tell us when you notice a thought arise in your mind.” It is difficult to convey what a brilliant and subtle intervention this was. It may have been the most inspired moment of teaching I have ever witnessed. After a few moments, a look of doubt appeared on our friend’s face. “Okay . . . Wait a minute . . . Oh . . . That could have been a thought there . . . Okay . . .” Over the next thirty seconds, we watched this woman’s enlightenment completely unravel. It became clear that she had been merely thinking about how expansive her experience of consciousness had become—how it was perfectly free of thought, immaculate, just like space—without noticing that she was thinking incessantly. She had been telling herself the story of her enlightenment—and she had been getting away with it because she happened to be an extraordinarily happy person for whom everything was going very well for the time being. This was the danger of nondual teachings of the sort that Poonja-ji was handing out to all comers. It was easy to delude oneself into thinking that one had achieved a permanent breakthrough, especially because he insisted that all breakthroughs must be permanent. What the Dzogchen teachings make clear, however, is that thinking about what is beyond thought is still thinking, and a glimpse of selflessness is generally only the beginning of a process that must reach fruition. Being able to stand perfectly free of the feeling of self is the start of one’s spiritual journey, not its end.

There's pressure on abdomen. What could this mean? I remember as a child complaining of a stomach ache. My mother asked me if I'd pooped. Ahhh. That was it. Let's say one makes the proper discrimination that it's a poop issue rather than appendicitis, preganancy, or intestinal cancer. How shall this issue be addressed? Just pooping where we are, while fine for horses, is frowned upon. There are no signs in Thailand Buddhist Temples, written in English and Chinese, saying no pooping. This is because many Chinese tourists traveling with small children have a slit in their trousers so they can poop wherever. The Thais don't like people pooping on temple grounds. Perhaps we are away from home. Do we try to make it home? Or take a risk and try a public bathroom? When we go to the public bathroom, is their a sign or symbol on the door where we can determine which bathroom is appropriate for our gender. What is our gender today? How is the pressure? Do we just relax and poop or do we need to make some effort? What does this effort look like? When we clean up after a perfect victory, do we use toilet paper like dirty westerners or can we use a bidet and water? Afterwards, what grade did our poop receive? How is the texture? No bleeding? Good. We can notice the impermanance of the body with the poop. A few minutes ago this poop was part of our body and we would have protected it. We can contemplate the earth element in ourselves here along with the stray bits of corn. Also the fractalness of the poop. There's a lot to unpack here if one is mindful. So ya, thoughts. Someone who claims to be without thoughts -- I'm skeptical. Perhaps they mean the DMN the discoursive mode network is quieter in them. There's studies that show that this is kinda true for longterm practitioners. I've noticed it myself. Zen puts an emphasis into "no-thinking" -- but this doesn't mean no thoughts.