How to deal with my toxic brother?

[Someone here]

My big brother is a very toxic person .and our relationship with each other is completely neurotic and fucked up .

he rarely ever truly takes responsibility for his negative actions (rarely apologize, almost always see himself the victim and everything/everyone else as the villains, blames others when something bad happens, etc.).
he very quickly resort to anger, aggression, and violence (even at extreme levels) when something bad happens or he don't get what they want.
he  doesn't really do anything for anyone else..he mostly only care about himself. 
 He hates having responsibilities (being financially responsible, cooking and cleaning, handling adult responsibilities on his own, etc.).
he is  naturally drawn to drama and start drama himself. 
He is  not charitable..most acts of service he does to eventually get what he want from the person he helps.
he have a toxic pessimistic mindset.
Whenever im are around him or hang out with him, i find my energy levels quickly drop.

i find myself having to "walk on eggshells" around him to make sure that nothing gets himin a bad mood .I must always be perfect, but he doesn’t have to be at all
he keeps complaining about how bad things are for him while ignoring all the things he is doing that are causing those bad things to happen .
He is blatantly hypocritical (ex. I hate when people yell at me and bully me, but I'll immediately start yelling at you and bully you if we ever get in an argument).

Now I can't just cut him out of my life ..he Is my big brother ..I live with him and I'm somewhat financially dependent on him ..but at the same time I can't stand it anymore..I'm sick of having to fight with him every single fucking day over the most trivial shit possible. 

Any advice? 

[ivankiss]

If or while you cannot cut him off completely, try to build some strong boundaries and stick to them. If you are unable to respect them, no one else will either.

 

I don't have siblings, but am very familiar with the dynamic you're describing. Distancing yourself, cutting contact (even if just for a while) seems to work the best. 

 

Read/watch videos about strong and healthy boundaries. Also might wanna look into the narcissist - empath dynamic and codependece, but don't get too hung up on it.

 

All the best.

Edited August 30, 2022 by ivankiss

[Someone here]

12 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

If or while you cannot cut him off completely, try to build some strong boundaries and stick to them. If you are unable to respect them, no one else will either.

 

I don't have siblings, but am very familiar with the dynamic you're describing. Distancing yourself, cutting contact (even if just for a while) seems to work the best. 

 

Read/watch videos about strong and healthy boundaries. Also might wanna look into the narcissist - empath dynamic and codependece, but don't get too hung up on it.

 

All the best.

Recently when we start a fight..   I smile, nod, and speak very slowly and kindly to him .while he keeps screaming. He made me his bitch ngl . If he does something I do not like I say "I do not appreciate that and will not be involved with that tone/behavior/attitude etc."

 Although I'm very social person and i like talking to people. I like 99% of the people I meet.  You really have to be a complete fuckass to get on my shit list, and if you're in mine odds are you're on everyone else's as well.  

Sometimes it's hard, specially with  family members or close friends, but that's the way. Antagonising with them does not worth it. They will only hear their arguments, and when you are speaking, they will be thinking, not listening.

 

How can I set healthy boundaries between me and him?  I'm literally forced to deal with his nonsense every single day. If I told him "don't talk to me ever again unless it's something important "..he yells at me and doesn't respect my descsion and continues his toxic behaviour with me .

[Mandy]

Why are you somewhat financially dependent on him? 

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Why are you somewhat financially dependent on him? 

Because im a university student. I don't have a job (yet ) .while he does .and he pays the bills. 

[Mandy]

@Someone here 👍

 

The "toxic" framing isn't serving you. It's behavior you don't like, and don't want, but you also want to love your brother, and writing him off as toxic isn't allowing you to get any other behavior from him than what you are expecting. He is suffering a lot, and acting it out. 

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Someone here 👍

 

The "toxic" framing isn't serving you. It's behavior you don't like, and don't want, but you also want to love your brother, and writing him off as toxic isn't allowing you to get any other behavior from him than what you are expecting. He is suffering a lot, and acting it out. 

Yeah He seem to have more responsibilities than me .but that's not an excuse to be a jerk to me .

I'm stuck between two choices. .either I should reduce my interactions with him to a minimum or stand his bullshit/toxicity until I become financially independent. 

But there is a problem either way :

like if you're talking to someone and they break your rules/boundaries then you can just say you don't like that and you're not going to continue the conversation and then just shut up or leave. it's really that simple. I can't control other people but i can control how i respond. 

 there are certain things i don't tolerate and if he does them then i just get up and walk away. i'm sure it's very kid-dependent on how effective this is, but he always gets upset and runs after me and i explain that i didn't like that and if he wants to hang out with me then he can't do that to me. it's usually not very effective . i forgive and move on quickly but he continues his  toxic behaviour the next day as if nothing ever changed since our last fight /oath that we will be nice to each other from now on .

17 minutes ago, Mandy said:

but you also want to love your brother

I'm not sure about that . I really don't give a shit about him anymore .if I could transition to another house and be independent I would do it ASAP and not ask about him or call him even once .

[ivankiss]

42 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Recently when we start a fight..   I smile, nod, and speak very slowly and kindly to him .while he keeps screaming. He made me his bitch ngl . If he does something I do not like I say "I do not appreciate that and will not be involved with that tone/behavior/attitude etc."

 Although I'm very social person and i like talking to people. I like 99% of the people I meet.  You really have to be a complete fuckass to get on my shit list, and if you're in mine odds are you're on everyone else's as well.  

Sometimes it's hard, specially with  family members or close friends, but that's the way. Antagonising with them does not worth it. They will only hear their arguments, and when you are speaking, they will be thinking, not listening.

 

How can I set healthy boundaries between me and him?  I'm literally forced to deal with his nonsense every single day. If I told him "don't talk to me ever again unless it's something important "..he yells at me and doesn't respect my descsion and continues his toxic behaviour with me .

Ime, people like this do not hear kind and soft words. Or very rarely. Raising your voice and telling him to F off can often be more effective then trying to play it safe and be all lovey lovey.

 

What you need to do is build yourself up and find a way to distance yourself from him. He can then choose to focus on his own healing process, if he wants to. Until then, you'll most likely going to keep being a target for him to project his pain onto. He's probably incapable of introspection and lacks self awareness big time. Lashing out at you is his way of coping with his unresolved shit. And that's not right. You should not be putting up with that, no matter the blood you share. It's simply not healthy for either one of you.

 

[Mandy]

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

there are certain things i don't tolerate and if he does them then i just get up and walk away. i'm sure it's very kid-dependent on how effective this is, but he always gets upset and runs after me and i explain that i didn't like that and if he wants to hang out with me then he can't do that to me. it's usually not very effective . i forgive and move on quickly but he continues his  toxic behaviour the next day as if nothing ever changed since our last fight /oath that we will be nice to each other from now on .

It's possible that he sees how conditional your love is, so he's testing it. Like atom bomb dropping testing, but testing nonetheless. 

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I'm not sure about that . I really don't give a shit about him anymore .if I could transition to another house and be independent I would do it ASAP and not ask about him or call him even once .

That's what's toxic. I'm not saying you have to act different or loving toward him, but inwardly, love him. You DO give a shit, because you right now, need/want him to stop acting how he does, OR you want him out of your life. Anything other than love, (again, not the outward display, the invisible feeling/intention ) feels awful and is what is attracting this behavior. He is mirroring your inner state. Once you love him, regardless, unconditionally, you will attract a new life situation. Not until. You are attracting this behavior. Our best teachers are the ones that annoy the hell out of us. You do want the hell out of you. Yes? 

[Someone here]

28 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Ime, people like this do not hear kind and soft words. Or very rarely. Raising your voice and telling him to F off can often be more effective then trying to play it safe and be all lovey lovey.

 

What you need to do is build yourself up and find a way to distance yourself from him. He can then choose to focus on his own healing process, if he wants to. Until then, you'll most likely going to keep being a target for him to project his pain onto. He's probably incapable of introspection and lacks self awareness big time. Lashing out at you is his way of coping with his unresolved shit. And that's not right. You should not be putting up with that, no matter the blood you share. It's simply not healthy for either one of you.

 

i think you are right. Being  nice to him is not gonna work or make him change his behaviour. But I don't want to confront his toxicity with more toxicity. Why can't he just change his personality? Why it has to be ME that needs to take action and not him? 

Telling him to fuck off will backfire and he might force me to leave the house and become homeless.  So I don't want to make him extremely angry at me .because to be honest ..I fear him and what he can do to me .he is a thug .he might physically hurt me .

15 minutes ago, Mandy said:

It's possible that he sees how conditional your love is, so he's testing it. Like atom bomb dropping testing, but testing nonetheless. 

That's what's toxic. I'm not saying you have to act different or loving toward him, but inwardly, love him. You DO give a shit, because you right now, need/want him to stop acting how he does, OR you want him out of your life. Anything other than love, (again, not the outward display, the invisible feeling/intention ) feels awful and is what is attracting this behavior. He is mirroring your inner state. Once you love him, regardless, unconditionally, you will attract a new life situation. Not until. You are attracting this behavior. Our best teachers are the ones that annoy the hell out of us. You do want the hell out of you. Yes? 

Thanks for the great advice and support.  I agree that Cutting the truly toxic people out of my life can be not  healthy sometimes .but I have a bit of a problem with that mentality taken to an extreme. I don’t want to be a hermit. Relationships take work and a couple of problems here and there is normal and expected. I don’t think it’s reasonable or healthy to just finish every relationship I have where there’s the slightest problem. Anyway just my two cents. I thought of simple living as maybe just being more detached and not allowing the emotions to get to me in the first place, rather than acting on those emotions by cutting people out of my life right away. 

19 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Once you love him, regardless, unconditionally, you will attract a new life situation. Not until. You are attracting this behavior. Our best teachers are the ones that annoy the hell out of us. You do want the hell out of you. Yes? 

The guy is a thug .he is a dickhead .If I show him love and unconditional acceptance for his behaviour he will take this as a  chance to climb over me even more intensely. 

I understand that fire cannot be got ridden of by more fire (we need water ) but why do I have to be the one who switches his mentality when it's he that needs to change, not me ?

 

[ivankiss]

27 minutes ago, Someone here said:

i think you are right. Being  nice to him is not gonna work or make him change his behaviour. But I don't want to confront his toxicity with more toxicity. Why can't he just change his personality? Why it has to be ME that needs to take action and not him? 

Telling him to fuck off will backfire and he might force me to leave the house and become homeless.  So I don't want to make him extremely angry at me .because to be honest ..I fear him and what he can do to me .he is a thug .he might physically hurt me .

Well yeah, that's just what being trapped in a codependent relationship is like. You cannot truly speak your mind or heart, because you depend on him. Emotionally, financially, or however else. It does not matter. As long as you need something from him, or fear his response, you won't be able to fully claim your power and be yourself around him. That's how I experienced things at least, and many, many others report the same thing. It's a nasty pattern that keeps repeating itself, until you break free.

 

I told my abuser many times to F off. Sometimes it made things worse, but mainly it just made it really clear to them that I will not take their shit anymore.

 

Ideally, you'd just walk away in silence. But you cannot really do that just yet, can you? You must stand your ground and fight not to be completely stripped of your dignity.

 

I waited for too long, and trust me, healing from complete and utter humiliation is anything but easy, even once you've made it out.

 

27 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Why it has to be ME that needs to take action and not him? 

Because you are the one that has more self awareness, emotional maturity, etc. You are the one that sees the bullshit. Not him. And that's also why you suffer more, in a sense. You are aware of both his and your pain. It's too much to bare.

 

In situations like this, distancing yourself and giving him and you the opportunity to heal is the most loving thing you can do. You cannot love the fire away while you're burning in it. You can learn to accept and love once you are out and are not being abused anymore.

Edited August 30, 2022 by ivankiss

[Mandy]

44 minutes ago, Someone here said:

The guy is a thug .he is a dickhead .If I show him love and unconditional acceptance for his behaviour he will take this as a  chance to climb over me even more intensely. 

I didn't say to necessarily show him anything, I was very clear that your outward actions need not change, but how you inwardly feel needs to or you will keep on attracting the same behavior or the same circumstances of not having a choice about where to go. 

 

48 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I understand that fire cannot be got ridden of by more fire (we need water ) but why do I have to be the one who switches his mentality when it's he that needs to change, not me ?

It seems like we are ALWAYS the one who must change, always the one who is wrong, simply because you cannot control other's behavior. Discord is there to guide us away from thoughts and ways of focusing that create more of what we do not want. Listen to your own discordant emotion, rather than blaming it on a circumstance or another, and in doing so being a victim. "Be the change you wish to see"

[Someone here]

@ivankiss @Mandy

I will experiment with what you guys have suggested..and see what works and what doesn't:

 

1. Set healthy boundaries between us .

2. Being a jerk to him just like how he is being a jerk to me and tell him to fuck off 

3. Accept him unconditionally and love him even more and that might counterintuitively force him to change his behaviour. 

 

[Mandy]

3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 

3. Accept him unconditionally and love him even more and that might counterintuitively force him to change his behaviour. 

 

Counterintuitive force of change of behavior is a big fat condition, not unconditional love.

[Phil]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

My big brother is a very toxic person .and our relationship with each other is completely neurotic and fucked up .

he rarely ever truly takes responsibility for his negative actions (rarely apologize, almost always see himself the victim and everything/everyone else as the villains, blames others when something bad happens, etc.).

Is saying someone is a toxic person a positive action?

If not, would you apologize for having said it?

Do you feel discord with someone else’s thoughts?

 

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

he very quickly resort to anger, aggression, and violence (even at extreme levels) when something bad happens or he don't get what they want.
he  doesn't really do anything for anyone else..he mostly only care about himself. 
 He hates having responsibilities (being financially responsible, cooking and cleaning, handling adult responsibilities on his own, etc.).
he is  naturally drawn to drama and start drama himself. 
He is  not charitable..most acts of service he does to eventually get what he want from the person he helps.
he have a toxic pessimistic mindset.

Is saying someone else is toxic focusing on your own financial situation?

Does it feel more like equanimity, or more neurotic / dramatic? 

Are you looking to get change from him, while believing he’s not going to? 

 

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Whenever im are around him or hang out with him, i find my energy levels quickly drop.

i find myself having to "walk on eggshells" around him to make sure that nothing gets himin a bad mood .I must always be perfect, but he doesn’t have to be at all
he keeps complaining about how bad things are for him while ignoring all the things he is doing that are causing those bad things to happen .

Is believing energy levels & mood drop when around someone something you’re doing which causes energy levels & mood to drop? 

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

He is blatantly hypocritical (ex. I hate when people yell at me and bully me, but I'll immediately start yelling at you and bully you if we ever get in an argument).

Now I can't just cut him out of my life ..he Is my big brother ..I live with him and I'm somewhat financially dependent on him ..but at the same time I can't stand it anymore..I'm sick of having to fight with him every single fucking day over the most trivial shit possible. 

Any advice? 

Is thinking this way about someone & feeling the discord while saying someone else is causing it, hypocritical?

If so, is there a need to exclude someone?

Does this thinking lead to independence? 

[Someone here]

@Mandy

Actually im leaning more towards @ivankiss advice .to be a complete asshole to him just like how he is to me.

Or getting him  completely out of my life if I could.  Blocked and never speak to him again. He probably think I will come back and will be shocked to finally realise it will never happen.

 

@Phil what you’re saying makes perfect sense. But  Cultural pressure adds a whole other dimension to this that I think a lot of Westerners don’t understand. However, I would say that even in my weird  culture, where there is this expectation that you take care of your family members no matter what they do..there’s likely also a set of norms regarding how you’re expected to manage your relationship with your family members. If you’re the sole provider(which my brother is ) then that makes you the head of the household. Which means you get to make the the decisions  for how money is spent and you get to withhold money when you’re being disrespected. You have the power here to start dictating how you are to be treated. Don’t be afraid to flex that muscle. What are they going to do? Throw you out? They can’t afford it. Insult you? You’ll stop giving them money. Change your perspective and take your power back. You can't do it!!

Edited August 30, 2022 by Someone here

[ivankiss]

@Someone here Careful, I'm not exactly saying to be a complete asshole towards him. I'm saying to raise your voice when needed and let him know when he stepped over the line. Don't turn into a bully yourself. Simply make it clear where your boundaries are when you are being attacked.

[Mandy]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Blocked and never speak to him again. He probably think I will come back and will be shocked to finally realise it will never happen.

This is the emotion of revenge. 

Don't make decisions from the clouded view of lower emotions. 

[Phil]

@Someone here

So if I’ve got it right, he’s toxic, I don’t understand, and you can’t do it…? 

Sounds like rationalizing & justifying denial & a victim mindset. 

[ivankiss]

@Mandy @Phil

Sorry guys, its not my thread, but I think you're both being ridiculous here. I guess you triggered me.

 

There are innocent Ukrainian women and children being raped and killed by Russian soldiers - for example - and you're saying that they should be more unconditionally loving and accepting towards their perpetrators? 

 

That's just not how things work in the heat of the moment. It might work from the comfort of your couch, but not when you are facing stuff like that head on. 

 

Talk about spiritual bypassing. What you are doing here is actually borderline bullying too. It's a form of abuse. Far from being compassionate, loving or helpful - imo.

 

When abuse shows up, find safety first. There will be plenty of time for spiritual mumbo jumbo later.

 

'How easy it is to deny the pain of someone else's suffering'

Edited August 30, 2022 by ivankiss