Thoughts & Duality

[Blessed2]

A while back someone made a thread here, asking "what is a thought?".

 

When I wondered about that, the first thing that came in mind was that thought = "this, not that".

 

Like how "up" means "not down".

 

It seemed at first kind of like Plato's idealism. I'm not that familiar with Plato's metaphysics, but if I remember correctly, his idealism stated that the objects in this world are kind appearances of an idea of those objects, from what he called "idea world".

 

So at first I saw it kind of like that. I saw it as if there is an "idea-world" of dualistic distinctions, and thought kind of picks out objects & things out of those dualities that already exist.

 

But then I noticed something totally crazy. If it is thought itself that implies duality, then how could there be pre-existing dualities from which thought carves or picks the ones to imply?

 

So... If there isn't any dualities prior to thought... Thought makes them up 'on the fly', from thin air, from nothing.

 

And that's totally frikin nuts.

 

It means that literally no thought is true. All of it, everything thought conveys, is made up on the fly. What thoughts make up is entirely "distinct", or "detached" from Truth, or nonduality. There is neither "up" nor "down".

 

All thought stories are entirely false, and doesn't say literally anything at all about truth. Trees, cars, planets, stars, people... None of these things and stuff and happenings are coming from Truth. They are entirely made up, totally unreal.

 

Unlike university students, thought does not go to a Truth library to check if it's stories are accurate. It makes it all up. It's total fantasy.

 

In other words, you are entirely innocent. No thought, no story, no descrpition or definition has anything to do with you, at all.

 

Anything that goes on in the world has absolutely nothing to do with you. It's all false. Totally unreal. You are pure and innocent, and nothing has ever changed that.

 

 

[Orb]

I love this ❤️🙏

[Phil]

Yes!

Even anything going on in a world. 

[Someone here]

This post is so wrong and misguided that it takes huge chunk of time to refute It all ..so I won't do that. I'll leave it for you to discover that you are deeply misguided. 

[Phil]

@Someone here

It isn’t relieving, noticing wrong is just the thought ™️  ’wrong’, relative to believing in right & wrong as ‘the knower’? 

 

What gives? 🤷‍♀️ 

[Someone here]

13 minutes ago, Phil said:

@Someone here

It isn’t relieving, noticing wrong is just the thought ™️  ’wrong’, relative to believing in right & wrong as ‘the knower’? 

 

 

Is it "wrong " to have sex with a child ?

Even worse ..is it wrong to have sex with your child? 

(Please answer this question as clearly as possible..it's "going somewhere "..it just needs build-up first because right &wrong and morality is a tricky topic ).

16 minutes ago, Phil said:

What gives? 🤷‍♀️ 

All people. 

[Blessed2]

36 minutes ago, Someone here said:

This post is so wrong and misguided that it takes huge chunk of time to refute It all ..so I won't do that. I'll leave it for you to discover that you are deeply misguided. 

 

What's talked about in this thread feels so great that it would actually be self-harm to take that comment seriously. 😁

 

It's a very sneaky belief/assumption that there is some kind of a pre-existing warehouse of dualities which source is Truth.

 

No thought or implied duality is true. It's all so made-up that there isn't really even any words in our language to describe the unreality of thought stories. It's so false that it isn't even false anymore but more like just kind of fun and delightful.

 

[Someone here]

@Blessed2 oh for sure bro. Just  Let me on in how you gonna build a career ..make money ..become successful..start a family ..and succeed in life on the practical level without poo-poo "thought stories ".

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Is it "wrong " to have sex with a child ?

Even worse ..is it wrong to have sex with your child? 

(Please answer this question as clearly as possible..it's "going somewhere "..it just needs build-up first because right &wrong and morality is a tricky topic ).

All people. 

‘Wrong’ is a judgement (a thought) on behalf of a nonexistent separate self, an illusory perspective as if of ‘a knower’, separate of consciousness, which knows about consciousness, such that consciousness is ‘wrong’. 

 

Synonyms for consciousness (as in self-aware being, aware of thoughts / concepts about separate selves, not actually “in” thoughts) are intelligence and unconditionality. Self-aware being would never harm itself. Ignorance (the belief in separate selves, that you are a separate self, the ‘knower’ & that there is wrong) is experiential yet illusory. 

 

If this doesn’t seem clear questions will likely arise. Feel free to share if interested and this will get clearer. 

 

[Phil]

26 minutes ago, Someone here said:

All people. 

  Let me on in how you gonna build a career ..make money ..become successful..start a family ..and succeed in life on the practical level without poo-poo "thought stories ".

Relax. Focus on feeling breathing in the stomach, let thought activity fizzle out, and then as it resumes, notice the separate self of thoughts (which that is entirely about). You, awareness, are (“only ever”) already present. It’s also arguably easier to write the thoughts and then look at them. Circling pronouns can be clarifying as well. 

 

Story wise if interested in a story, meditation, feeling emotions & creating a dreamboard worked as experiential reality is vibrational appearance. The separate self, ego, is the ‘getting in your own way’, and emotion is guidance therein. Try to see ‘we’re all children of God’ as it were.

[Blessed2]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

oh for sure bro. Just  Let me on in how you gonna build a career ..make money ..become successful..start a family ..and succeed in life on the practical level without poo-poo "thought stories ".

 

I'm kind of lost as to how we got here from the original post. I don't see the connection.

 

You're not asked to somehow be without thoughts or something. That's not what's being said here.

 

I'm very sorry if you've catched that interpretation (that you must be without thoughts). I totally feel you, that stuff feels horrible.

 

Edited May 18 by Blessed2

[Someone here]

@Phil you haven't answered the question in the slightest little bit . I didn't ask for your definition of the word wrong nor of the word consciousness. 

I asked: is it wrong to fuck your child ?

Answer this . 

But of course you won't. And you can't. 

Because what this perspective (in OP which you agree with) implies that nothing is ever  wrong . Given that there is no separate self ..a knower or a doer ..you can fuck your child while getting fucked analy by donkey and drinking dog  piss .. And that won't be wrong because wrong ls thought and there isn't  a you. 

( and before you issue me a warning..slow down and notice that there is nothing wrong with my post ).

[Phil]

Just now, Someone here said:

@Phil you haven't answered the question in the slightest little bit . I didn't ask for your definition of the word wrong nor of the word consciousness. 

I asked: is it wrong to fuck your child ?

Answer this . 

Yes, there was an answer. The belief in separate selves isn’t shared, and so the answer is rejected and can very much be experienced as not an answer. 

The answer is wrong and your child are beliefs, from an illusory perspective (interpretation really) as / of a separate self. 

 

Just now, Someone here said:

But of course you won't. And you can't. 

The simple, self-evident truth is there’s no you. Beliefs must be added for consciousness to seem otherwise, other than infinite. 

 

Just now, Someone here said:

Because what this perspective (in OP which you agree with) implies that nothing is ever  wrong .

I don’t see that / get that from the op. Seems like a twisting of what was said. Maybe ask, allowing the opportunity for continued communication rather than judging and not engaging because “you” don’t have “time” to. Go a lil deeper into truth of Self introspectively. 

 

Just now, Someone here said:

Given that there is no separate self ..a knower or a doer ..you

Meditation is great for thought slowing down. The you is the separate self of thought. There is no you, but this thought is believed quickly so to speak and the reality that the experience is of apparent thoughts is overlooked apparently. 

 

Consciousness unfettered, un-obscurred… peace, love, happiness, intelligence. 

 

Just now, Someone here said:

can fuck your child while getting fucked analy by donkey and drinking dog  piss .. And that won't be wrong because wrong ls thought and there isn't  a you. 

( and before you issue me a warning..slow down and notice that there is nothing wrong with my post ).

It’s the same as a hand on a hot stove. The separate self, knower, and judgment, wrong… are hindsight conceptualizations. 

[Someone here]

18 minutes ago, Phil said:

. Try to see ‘we’re all children of God’ as it were.

There is no such thing as God. 

18 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

 

I'm kind of lost as to how we got here from the original post. I don't see the connection.

 

You're not asked to somehow be without thoughts or something. That's not what's being said here.

 

I'm very sorry if you've catched that interpretation (that you must be without thoughts). I totally feel you, that stuff feels horrible.

 

It's simple ..you said thought does not ever define who you are and has nothing to do with your repute . I ask : I agree from the abstract philosophical absolute perspective..but from the practical perspective you need the thought story of being a self In time to put bread on the table at the very least .

[Phil]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

There is no such thing as God. 

♥️🎯

 

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It's simple ..you said thought does not ever define who you are and has nothing to do with your repute . I ask : I agree from the abstract philosophical absolute perspective..but from the practical perspective you need the thought story of being a self In time to put bread on the table at the very least .

It seems ‘your mind’ as it were is pretty twisted up with dualisms like there being an abstract philosophical absolute perspective, and a relative or practical perspective, at the expense (suffering) of overlooking the sep self of thoughts. There’s nothing wrong with that, but truth is shared here. It’s the point of a spiritual forum. 

[Phil]

19 minutes ago, Someone here said:

you haven't answered the question in the slightest little bit

Care to explain how a you can explain to you there is no you?

[Orb]

@Someone here are you interested in self realization or self conceptualization? 

 

If it's the 2nd option, you can keep banging your head against the wall, you won't find what you want on this forum.

[Phil]

Some direct experience, maybe clarifying, maybe not, idk.

 

A few months ago a tenant died of stress / heart attack, and about a month ago the widow died from being stabbed to death. Phil was on day 1 of 10 in Hawaii, and so a detective and the next of kin, a 22 yr old female went to see the condition of the house. Upon seeing the scene, the detective took a leave of absence from work to reconcile the trauma therapeutically, while the 22 yr old recaps the bathroom, in which the murder happened as, “it just looked like someone had a bloody nose”. 

 

Phil get’s home and goes & sees the place and it looked as if a blood fountain was placed in the middle of the room and left on all day. There was blood across all four walls, most of the floor, the sink, the toilet, with the majority of the blood being in the tub, where the body was placed before the perpetrator poured gas on himself and lit himself on fire. 

 

Insurance claim filed, restoration company assesses the damage and risk of airborne blood pathogens, and guts everything, including the floor, walls and ceiling. Even some of the subfloor, as the blood had seeped in / stain. 

 

Was there a ‘mental blocking out’ on the 22 yr old’s behalf? Probably, idk. Was it a challenging experience with respect to the detective? Probably, idk. Is there actually separate selves? Anyone which murdered, was murdered, blocked anything out, died or is wrong…? No. That would be ignorance. Similarly, what’s being said is there aren’t separate selves, experiential reality is unconditional love, and that might be ‘mentally blocked out’, and seem like a non-answer. 

 

Right & wrong & morality aren’t “tricky topics”, ‘they’re’ thoughts. 

[Someone here]

13 minutes ago, Phil said:

♥️🎯

 

It seems ‘your mind’ as it were is pretty twisted up with dualisms like there being an abstract philosophical absolute perspective, and a relative or practical perspective, at the expense (suffering) of overlooking the sep self of thoughts. There’s nothing wrong with that, but truth is shared here. It’s the point of a spiritual forum. 

I get what the problem  is .."Just Witness. Analysing it is just mental masturbation. Good..Bad..Ugly..disgusting etc  are just thoughts. Awareness is. Everything else that we do is a colour and a  happening".

 

I fucking get that. 

But what you don't get is that existence obviously isn't just this realisation..You choose to identify as awareness but how can you choose a piece of reality and not the rest of it? That’s what’s frustrating.. before you ask.. yes I’ve done meditation till the end. Yes I’ve identified as awareness and felt peace the peace that passes understanding as some put it but it’s not reality as it is. It’s like a self help technique for people who are suicidal or struggle with mental health issues..i’m sorry if this sounds brutal but it’s just how I see things. Your perspective that there is no you is just a partial limited perspective..but not reality as it’s whole. 

I'm out .

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Someone here are you interested in self realization or self conceptualization? 

 

If it's the 2nd option, you can keep banging your head against the wall, you won't find what you want on this forum.

I'm not interested in anything really.  I'm just expressing myself. 

Both self realisation and self conceptualization are toys and distractions on the path .

This work is about total liberation from boxing things into categories. 

This whole "either or " bullshit.