Thoughtless state vs busy mind - what's the difference?

[Forza21]

I've been to a silent zen retreat lately. And during it, the mind calms down, to the point of no thoughts at all. The sense of peace and clarity is really immense. Meditation is so easy, and "staying in presence" is just a natural state to be. Everything flows on its own accord, and it's obvious, there's no doer and no thinker of thoughts. 

When i'm back to so-called "normal life" mind gets busy, and it takes many hours of sitting, to get this clarity of no-thoughts. Of course, it's possible, and it's always there. I know that it's always available. But still, it "feels" really different. But why?

Since i'm not the mind, it shouldn't really matter if there are many thoughts or no thoughts, right?

So what's the difference between thoughtless state vs many thoughts state?
What's the difference between "thinking" and "no thinking?"

I'm aware of thoughts like  "oh i had it, and it's gone now!" "i don't have that clarity anymore" " i've lost this sense of presents" etc.
 

i know it's just another story/thoughts. But still, there's a great difference between amount of thoughts during retreat, and daily life. Like busy-thought-train vs very calm, a few thoughts clouds passing by. And i don't know why and how to approach it.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Forza21

[James123]

23 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

So what's the difference between thoughtless state vs many thoughts state?
What's the difference between "thinking" and "no thinking?"

It is not between thinking and no thinking. Empty mind is realization is there is no such thing as mind or thoughts. For instance me, if I am supposed to do something, I think 1 time and I action. I don't over think. The conclusion is no suffering, freedom and love. Moreover, if I want to cry I cry, but just cry not suffer from crying. Because, if you put thought on crying, you suffer. If I get upset I get upset therefore cry. But during the crying I don't think therefore I don't suffer. Moreover, I become the fully crying. There is not a person who cries, i am the crying.

 

23 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

When i'm back to so-called "normal life" mind gets busy, and it takes many hours of sitting, to get this clarity of no-thoughts. Of course, it's possible, and it's always there. I know that it's always available. But still, it "feels" really different. But why?

Because, enlightenment is must, not glimpses, but fully loaded enlightenment experience or death of thoughts/I is must.

Edited September 28, 2022 by James123

[Forza21]

17 minutes ago, James123 said:

It is not between thinking and no thinking. Empty mind is realization is there is no such thing as mind or thoughts. For instance me, if I am supposed to do something, I think 1 time and I action. I don't over think. The conclusion is no suffering, freedom and love. Moreover, if I want to cry I cry, but just cry not suffer from crying. Because, if you put thought on crying, you suffer. If I get upset I get upset therefore cry. But during the crying I don't think therefore I don't suffer. Moreover, I become the fully crying. There is not a person who cries, i am the crying.

 

Because, enlightenment is must, not glimpses, but fully loaded enlightenment experience or death of thoughts/I is must.

I understand that. 
But since there's no thinker of thoughts, and no doer, and i don't feel like i can do anything to "think less". 
I just sit, and wait, until thoughts naturally settle down.
I don't choose if there are many thoughts or no thoughts. 

But maybe i should go back to retreated, and just wait, until full realization takes place. 
There's still that sense of struggle with "many thoughts" and clarity. 🙂

Edited September 28, 2022 by Forza21

[James123]

4 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

26 minutes ago, James123 said:

It is not between thinking and no thinking. Empty mind is realization is there is no such thing as mind or thoughts. For instance me, if I am supposed to do something, I think 1 time and I action. I don't over think. The conclusion is no suffering, freedom and love. Moreover, if I want to cry I cry, but just cry not suffer from crying. Because, if you put thought on crying, you suffer. If I get upset I get upset therefore cry. But during the crying I don't think therefore I don't suffer. Moreover, I become the fully crying. There is not a person who cries, i am the crying.

 

Because, enlightenment is must, not glimpses, but fully loaded enlightenment experience or death of thoughts/I is must.

Expand  

I understand that. 
But since there's no thinker of thoughts, and no doer, and i don't feel like i can do anything to "think less".

The thing is after enlightenment, attachment with thoughts ends. However, illusion of thoughts and duality/life still goes on. Thoughts are of course there, but it is an illusion. So will you consider your hand or shadow of your hand? Attachment of thoughts are considering the shadow of the hand. 

 

6 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

But maybe i should go back to retreated, and just wait, until full realization takes place. 
There's still that sense of struggle with "many thoughts" and clarity. 🙂

Of course. If full realization doesn't happened, thoughts considered by individual as real. Individual is thought too. I am full aware that real me is nothing, now is before birth, these are not sentences, nobody is here, there is no such a thing as thought, but as you see illusion still goes on ☺️

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

I've been to a silent zen retreat lately. And during it, the mind calms down, to the point of no thoughts at all. The sense of peace and clarity is really immense. Meditation is so easy, and "staying in presence" is just a natural state to be. Everything flows on its own accord, and it's obvious, there's no doer and no thinker of thoughts. 

Some thoughts are ‘sneakier’ about there being time passing & a separate self in time, that’s been to a silent zen retreat & stays in presence. 

 

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

When i'm back to so-called "normal life" mind gets busy, and it takes many hours of sitting, to get this clarity of no-thoughts. Of course, it's possible, and it's always there. I know that it's always available. But still, it "feels" really different. But why?

Which left and is ‘back to the now’, get’s clarity, knows stuff, to whom an it feels. 

 

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

Since i'm not the mind, it shouldn't really matter if there are many thoughts or no thoughts, right?

‘Many thoughts’ and ‘no thoughts’ are thoughts. 

 

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

 

So what's the difference between thoughtless state vs many thoughts state?
What's the difference between "thinking" and "no thinking?"

‘Thoughtless state’ is a thought. ‘Many thoughts state’ is a thought. ‘Thinking’ is one thought, ‘no thinking’ is one thought. 

‘Thinking’ is a thought - ‘thinker’ is a thought - there is no ‘thinker’ ‘thinking’ - there are thoughts appearing. 

 

States is an egocentric self conceptualization of a “self” in states. It’s intellectual dogma. There are no states. It’s dishonest & misleading conjecture which arises of purporting. In & of itself so to speak, ‘it’s’ rumination / suppressed emotion.  Absolutely nothing ‘wrong’ with that, there’s just more to investigate / express - which is great, because it’s the joy of self discovery. 🤍

 

Imagine never having heard of the concept of states, and just feel, as feeling, aware of the thoughts about there being ‘states’. Notice you’re not in states, anymore than you find yourself in thoughts. Recognize state chasing as seeking, and therein as the liberation of the chasing.  

 

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

I'm aware of thoughts like  "oh i had it, and it's gone now!" "i don't have that clarity anymore" " i've lost this sense of presents" etc.
 

i know it's just another story/thoughts. But still, there's a great difference between amount of thoughts during retreat, and daily life. Like busy-thought-train vs very calm, a few thoughts clouds passing by. And i don't know why and how to approach it.

What you resist persists. 

Allow. 

[Mandy]

If you're going to think, make your thoughts aligned ones. The assumption that no thought is better than thought is a discordant thought. 😳