Why does it hurt so bad?

[Phil]

1 hour ago, ivankiss said:

Topic is pain, no?

It’s  ‘why does ending of relationship hurt so much?’

 

Pain, losing a loved one & enlightenment mints was introduced a few comments in. 

 

2 hours ago, Phil said:

What does that there isn’t any separation seem like an interpretation of? 

@ivankiss

It’s not a trick question at all.

 

That there isn’t separation isn’t an interpretation. That there is separation, such as separated from a love one and therein pain & enlightenment mints is interpretation. 

 

The suffering is of the interpretation(s), inherently challenging the illusion of separateness, attachment, deep seated beliefs & patterns.  

 

Reflecting on why it ended can clarify the distinction between pain and suffering as well as dispel limiting beliefs, allowing greater alignment & healthier more harmonious future relationships.

 

Loss is a concept, grief an emotion… guidance. Conceptualizing pain as suffering, this might be overlooked. Which is to say liberation might be being overlooked. 

[ivankiss]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:50 AM, Phil said:

It’s  ‘why does ending of relationship hurt so much?’

Which is pain. Heart - break is not something you think.

On 5/23/2024 at 12:50 AM, Phil said:

enlightenment mints was introduced a few comments in. 

 

Common now, that's funny 😅

On 5/23/2024 at 12:50 AM, Phil said:

That there isn’t separation isn’t an interpretation. That there is separation, such as separated from a love one and therein pain & enlightenment mints is interpretation. 

Anything I or anyone else here reads about interpretations, separations, relations and enlightenment mints can be an interpretation.

 

On 5/23/2024 at 12:50 AM, Phil said:

 

Reflecting on why it ended can clarify the distinction between pain and suffering as well as dispel limiting beliefs, allowing greater alignment & healthier more harmonious future relationships.

 

No beef with that part.

 

All that was being pointed out in previous posts, if not obvious enough, is that thoughts such as "there is no separation, it's belief, it's interpretation, it's just a discord this, aversion that" are not exactly the most pleasant to have in mind whilst in the middle of a heart - break. Now you're not only in pain, you're also legit going crazy. 

 

It's better sometimes to stay away from this jazz altogether.

Edited May 23 by ivankiss

[Phil]

21 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Which is pain

15 hours ago, ivankiss said:

To separate from a loved one is the biggest pain there is. No amount of enlightened mints can help you when your heart is splitting in two.

That’s an interpretation. The enlightenment mint is, suffering is how the interpretation feels.

 

The OP question is why does it hurt, not what will help a you. The ‘hurt’ is suffering, or, the interpretation(s) not resonating with that which is feeling. If it did, there wouldn’t be the question ‘why does it hurt’. 

[ivankiss]

16 minutes ago, Phil said:

That’s an interpretation.

How is pain an interpretation? Interpretation is an explanation, a meaning assigned to the pain being felt. In this case: heart - break. And the meaning assigned, the storyline, can easily be something along the lines of 'there is no separation, no one is losing no body, etc.'

Not healthy, imo. Or at the very least not a 'one size fit all' type of thing.

 

It is foolish to think that one can spiritual kung fu their way out of heart - break. 

It could be said that a very simple, down to earth 'time will slowly heal your wounds' can be a more real and honest way to go about it. 

 

17 minutes ago, Phil said:

The enlightenment mint is, suffering is how the interpretation feels.

 

The OP question is why does it hurt, not what will help a you. The ‘hurt’ is suffering, or, the interpretation(s) not resonating with that which is feeling. If it did, there wouldn’t be the question ‘why does it hurt’. 

 

Again, if my heart is broken, this stuff only hurts my brain. It doesn't mean or do anything. And worse. It adds to the confusion and the pain, that's already there.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, ivankiss said:

How is pain an interpretation?

As a conceptualization of suffering. 

 

7 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Interpretation is an explanation, a meaning assigned to the pain being felt. In this case: heart - break. And the meaning assigned, the storyline, can easily be something along the lines of 'there is no separation, no one is losing no body, etc.'

Not healthy, imo. Or at the very least not a 'one size fit all' type of thing.

There is separation would be adding meaning and or interpretation. There is no separation isn’t an adding of meaning and or interpretation. It’s reality as is. The suffering is of the interpretation. 

 

9 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

It is foolish to think that one can spiritual kung fu their way out of heart - break. 

Then why say it?

 

9 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

It could be said that a very simple, down to earth 'time will slowly heal your wounds' can be a more real and honest way to go about it. 

Then why not say that? 

[ivankiss]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

As a conceptualization of suffering. 

Not sure if I'm getting that. But feeling like I disagree 😅

 

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

There is separation would be adding meaning and or interpretation.

You don't have to think that there is or isn't separation, at all. But if we're honest, when true heart - break comes, we all feel like there is, by default. We all feel the tear. 

 

The suggestion is...

 

Why not drop the mind chatter altogether and focus on feeling without labeling? Or you know, just go for a run in the middle of the forest and scream on the top of your lungs. Just be fucking pissed. Just be terribly sad. Be whatever you feel. Become it. If you can, sit with it. Befriend it. Make something out of it. If not, that's fine too. No pressure. Let it pass through you. Let it do it's job - so to speak. Stop trying to scare it away with your spiritual kung fu moves. That's only making the fire grow bigger.

21 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Then why say it?

 

Then why not say that? 

 

Because where I was when I wrote that is not where I was when I wrote this. 

 

But also, because, heart - break.

 

 

 

[ivankiss]

Real 'no separation' in 'live action' during a heart - break is more like this:

 

You're crying your eyes out, hands on the heart, saying to yourself 'it's ok. I am here. I am with you.'

[Phil]

18 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

You don't have to think that there is or isn't separation, at all. 

Then why suggest it?

 

18 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

But if we're honest, when true heart - break comes, we all feel like there is, by default. We all feel the tear. 

As @Jonas Long said, ‘we’… you got a mouse in your pocket? 

 

18 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

 

The suggestion is...

 

Why not drop the mind chatter altogether and focus on feeling without labeling? Or you know, just go for a run in the middle of the forest and scream on the top of your lungs. Just be fucking pissed. Just be terribly sad. Be whatever you feel. Become it. If you can, sit with it. Befriend it. Make something out of it. If not, that's fine too. No pressure. Let it pass through you. Let it do its job - so to speak.

Lovely. The op question is why does ending relationships hurt. 

 

18 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Stop trying to scare it away with your spiritual kung fu moves. That's only making the fire grow bigger.

If it doesn’t resonate you don’t have to say it. 

[ivankiss]

40 minutes ago, Phil said:

As @Jonas Long said, ‘we’… you got a mouse in your pocket? 

Funny until it's not anymore.

40 minutes ago, Phil said:

Lovely. The op question is why does ending relationships hurt. 

Yes, and I felt like no one actually addressed the issue. And then I also felt attacked, cornered.

[Phil]

6 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Funny until it's not anymore.

It’s just that the ‘we feel’ interpretations aren’t true, and there is the offness of how such interpretations feel.

 

6 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Yes, and I felt like no one actually addressed the issue. And then I also felt attacked, cornered.

Therein lies the worthwhileness of not spiritual bypassing and likely why there are resentful comments about spirituality. 

[ivankiss]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

likely why there are resentful comments about spirituality. 

Maybe it's just because of reading too much nonsense on forums 🤷‍♂️ It get into your head...

[Phil]

@ivankiss

How so?

[ivankiss]

7 hours ago, Phil said:

 

How so?

All these ideas one can read/consume here or at another place, are incredibly sticky. Stimulating. Addictive, even. Supper difficult to drop them.

 

Does more harm than good in the long run.

[Phil]

@ivankiss

The key is not settling for the suggested methods as just ideas. Engage, see how it goes, discuss. 

 

[ivankiss]

34 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

The key is not settling for the suggested methods as just ideas. 

 

I'd say it's nearly impossible, if not precisely impossible, not to start believing in all that's being said and worse, form an identity out of it.

An identity that's walking around saying to themselves and others that there is no identity and no others.

34 minutes ago, Phil said:

Engage, see how it goes, discuss. 

 

On it. Not too happy about how it's going, clearly.

Edited May 23 by ivankiss

[Phil]

16 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

I'd say it's nearly impossible, if not precisely impossible, not to start believing in all that's being said and worse, form an identity out of it.

As awareness, you’re aware of the thought “I’d”.  The implication of I’d is about a second self. “The second self (not me) would say it’s nearly impossible”. 

https://www.actualityofbeing.com/self-referential-thoughts

 

Writing thoughts is the simplest way to inspect thoughts. Visually, as opposed to not in perception where it can be seen clearly. 

 

It’s also clarifying to attempt to point to the self the thought is about. 

 

But again, don’t settle for just talking & ideas. Actually inspect. Use the scale to ‘walk yourself back to yourself’ / allow emotions to be acknowledged, felt & expressed as well (like doubt). Doubt is how the thought feels, and not how a second you feels. 

 

Question the belief in form. Simply. Start with, “what is form?”. Whatever comes to mind or appears as if a google result etc, then question what is that, whatever that seems to be. 

 

16 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

An identity that's walking around saying to themselves and others that there is no identity and no others.

Question the thought. If you’re aware, as awareness, what is “an identity walking around”? Same ‘method’ / inspection… question what is a body, and don’t settle, question until absolutely satisfied with the investigation. 

 

16 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

On it. Not too happy about how it's going, clearly.

One suggested method is expression, using the emotional scale & expressing the emotion that is felt. In finishing the scale it’s very clear you are happiness, and “not too happy” is on behalf of a self of thoughts, which you, happiness, are appearing as & aware of. 

 

Take full advance of all resources available. Reiki, therapy, meditation, journaling / expression, clean diet, exercise just to name a few, namely in terms of allowing the discord to empty / processing the trauma mentioned. 

[Phil]

@ivankiss

It could be taken either way, up to you so to speak, but story of Phil wise, if insightful… the exact same suggested methods suggested were employed. Hundreds of hours of meditation, rather than hundreds of hours of videos of teacher - student identity manipulation, concepts about becoming, increasing, levels, etc, etc, etc (a self in time). So the separate self of thoughts, of which all of that arises and to which it appeals… none of those thoughts even arose in the first place. There was a lot of Rupert Spira (clarity about the separate self of thoughts) and Abraham Hicks (clarity about consciously creating), there just wasn’t the opposite, or, any reinforcement of mistaken identity. There was content pointing to the real teacher, to the guidance, to Self, and no content of a purporting to be the teacher, if that makes any sense.

[ivankiss]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

As awareness, you’re aware of the thought “I’d”.  The implication of I’d is about a second self. “The second self (not me) would say it’s nearly impossible”. 

https://www.actualityofbeing.com/self-referential-thoughts

 

Writing thoughts is the simplest way to inspect thoughts. Visually, as opposed to not in perception where it can be seen clearly. 

 

It’s also clarifying to attempt to point to the self the thought is about. 

 

But again, don’t settle for just talking & ideas. Actually inspect. Use the scale to ‘walk yourself back to yourself’ / allow emotions to be acknowledged, felt & expressed as well (like doubt). Doubt is how the thought feels, and not how a second you feels. 

 

Question the belief in form. Simply. Start with, “what is form?”. Whatever comes to mind or appears as if a google result etc, then question what is that, whatever that seems to be. 

 

Question the thought. If you’re aware, as awareness, what is “an identity walking around”? Same ‘method’ / inspection… question what is a body, and don’t settle, question until absolutely satisfied with the investigation. 

 

Excuse the arrogance, or do not, but I am way past that point.

2 hours ago, Phil said:

Take full advance of all resources available. Reiki, therapy, meditation, journaling / expression, clean diet, exercise just to name a few, namely in terms of allowing the discord to empty / processing the trauma mentioned. 

Sounds good. Sceptical about Reiki, considering therapy, working on and with all the rest that's mentioned. And more.

2 hours ago, Phil said:

story of Phil wise, if insightful… the exact same suggested methods suggested were employed. Hundreds of hours of meditation, rather than hundreds of hours of videos of teacher - student identity manipulation, concepts about becoming, increasing, levels, etc, etc, etc (a self in time). So the separate self of thoughts, of which all of that arises and to which it appeals… none of those thoughts even arose in the first place. 

Story of Ivan wise... thousands of hours of just sitting and playing guitar, years of sheer commitment, devotion, love.

A young musician, a genuine seeker, in the mids of raw awakening, carrying some quiet heavy baggage but also wearing his heart on his sleeve, joins a forum in hopes to connect with like - minded individuals and maybe get some answers to some questions. Gets a little bit of that, but mostly he just gets more trauma. He falls into, and at times is directly lured into all the traps that are out there. Pedestaling certain members including. Taking their word as gold. 

 

Truth prevails in this story too, no need to worry. All is well. 

2 hours ago, Phil said:

 

There was content pointing to the real teacher, to the guidance, to Self, and no content of a purporting to be the teacher, if that makes any sense.

I understand, but there is a massive impact being made, with or without there being the label "teacher".

 

I heard this term some while ago... I thought is was absolutely hilarious. It's what you would call someone who's working in the spiritual field as a healer, but has not really addressed their own density...

 

You would call them...

 

Wait for it...

 

The Gaslightworker.

[Phil]

35 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Excuse the arrogance, or do not, but I am way past that point.

As awareness you’re prior to & aware of. 

Notice hindsight justifications & rationalizations of arrogance… which doesn’t even resonate with you. 

It’s ok to apologize when you call someone ‘boy for example, vs rationalizing with ‘if someone was offended’ or spiritual bypassing. 

It’s your conscience, your well-being we’re talking about here (so to speak).

 

35 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Sounds good. Sceptical about Reiki, considering therapy, working on and with all the rest that's mentioned. And more.

👍🏼

 

35 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Story of Ivan wise... thousands of hours of just sitting and playing guitar, years of sheer commitment, devotion, love.

A young musician, a genuine seeker, in the mids of raw awakening, carrying some quiet heavy baggage but also wearing his heart on his sleeve, joins a forum in hopes to connect with like - minded individuals and maybe get some answers to some questions. Gets a little bit of that, but mostly he just gets more trauma. He falls into, and at times is directly lured into all the traps that are out there. Pedestaling certain members including. Taking their word as gold. 

 

Truth prevails in this story too, no need to worry. All is well. 

Anything amply inspected vanishes. ♥️

 

35 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

I understand, but there is a massive impact being made, with or without there being the label "teacher".

If it resonates, great! 

 

35 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

 

I heard this term some while ago... I thought is was absolutely hilarious. It's what you would call someone who's working in the spiritual field as a healer, but has not really addressed their own density...

 

You would call them...

 

Wait for it...

 

The Gaslightworker.

The impact seems to be mind reading, believing in healers and name calling. But go with what resonates. 

[ivankiss]

53 minutes ago, Phil said:

spiritual bypassing. 

Is what I learned or picked up from similar interactions such as this one.

57 minutes ago, Phil said:

The impact seems to be mind reading, believing in healers and name calling. But go with what resonates. 

How easy it is to deny the pain of someone else's suffering

 

So far, my experience was... I came in a couple of days ago , after a long break, with pure intentions, and a couple of honest questions. Again, got some answers, which I am grateful for, but what I also immediately got and did not ask for at all, was a certain someone trying to shove spiritual nonsense down my throat, saying how this is just stories, how it has noting to do with the path or enlightenment, etc. And then another certain someone started cornering me. Being as I am, I responded the way I did. Am not too ashamed of it. I think I will be able to sleep at night. Yes. I am glad someone stepped on my toe. I am glad I got so say what I had to say, even though, initially, that wasn't part of the plan - so to speak.