Celestial Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Does enlightenment eliminate suffering for good? Like is it possible to be completely free in this lifetime, no matter the condition of one's life? Does an awakened person still sometimes suffer even the slightest amount or is the suffering just poof, gone. These are some questions I have about awakening as I think I might have some preconceived ideas about what enlightenment is all about. Quote Mention https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ze_e4R9QY&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Does realizing that the water in the desert is an illusion eliminate the water for good? Does Harry Potter live happily ever after now that the series is finished? Are there persons who are awake or unaware? Are there two distinct possibilities or camps of people? What is suffering actually made up of? The water in the desert could be said to be made up of light, but isn't actually water or a source of future hope. Quote Mention Youtube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestial Posted April 15 Author Share Posted April 15 I was also gonna say, what actually is enlightenment? Because I'm not really sure. @Mandy are you saying that suffering doesn't get eliminated because it never existed? It definitely seems like I'm unaware of what enlightenment is. Quote Mention https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ze_e4R9QY&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 24 minutes ago, Celestial said: I was also gonna say, what actually is enlightenment? Because I'm not really sure. @Mandy are you saying that suffering doesn't get eliminated because it never existed? It definitely seems like I'm unaware of what enlightenment is. The recognition of the water to be one's own light and not using the assumption of lack, separation and future relief to guide, but feeling awareness itself. Suffering is the misunderstanding that relief lies ahead in the water, that happiness is conditional and attained by a separate self. There's no elimination of suffering in the future for a person. There is absolutely no need or reason to suffer now. Feeling guidance will always be there to guide now. Using belief and knowledge on behalf of a separate self (that there is water ahead) to guide is suffering. "Lean not on your own understanding." There is no separate self already, like there is no water ahead in the desert already, all your own light. En light enment. Quote Mention Youtube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 @Celestial Why the use of the word "again" in the title? Quote Mention Youtube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestial Posted April 15 Author Share Posted April 15 6 minutes ago, Mandy said: @Celestial Why the use of the word "again" in the title? It just came out like that but I was originally going to title the thread something like 'does enlightenment eliminate suffering'. Maybe again refers to 'after awakening', or 'once someone is enlightened'. Idk Quote Mention https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ze_e4R9QY&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 @Celestial The way we word things often reveals the assumptions that are creating that illusion of separation, "thing I don't have/have not yet attained". Quote Mention Youtube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 4 hours ago, Celestial said: Does enlightenment eliminate suffering for good? In the most literal usage…. What is suffering? Who is suffering? 4 hours ago, Celestial said: Like is it possible to be completely free in this lifetime, no matter the condition of one's life? What evidence is there that freedom isn't already the case? What’s no matter really mean? What is the condition, one’s life? 4 hours ago, Celestial said: Does an awakened person still sometimes suffer even the slightest amount or is the suffering just poof, gone. What is a person? 4 hours ago, Celestial said: These are some questions I have about awakening as I think I might have some preconceived ideas about what enlightenment is all about. Who or what thinks and has ideas? Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestial Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 17 hours ago, Mandy said: @Celestial The way we word things often reveals the assumptions that are creating that illusion of separation, "thing I don't have/have not yet attained". There's gotta be some sort of realisation right? I get that 'enlightenment is already the case' and everything but without the direct realisation im just stuck in mind world. Quote Mention https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ze_e4R9QY&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestial Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 16 hours ago, Phil said: In the most literal usage…. What is suffering? Who is suffering? I could say many things but suffering could be something like not feeling whole or completely fulfilled. I am suffering, I don't know what else to say. 16 hours ago, Phil said: What evidence is there that freedom isn't already the case? No evidence but I also don't have any evidence that freedom isn't the case. 16 hours ago, Phil said: What’s no matter really mean? What is the condition, one’s life? What is a person? No matter, as in not dependant on the situations and experiences of life. I don't know man, being alive seems to come with suffering I guess. I could act smart and say just a bundle of thoughts, memories, emotions and senses but I do feel like a separate being and it feels like there's other beings I interact with. 16 hours ago, Phil said: Who or what thinks and has ideas? I could say awareness, consciousness or whatever but it feels like I think and have ideas. Quote Mention https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ze_e4R9QY&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James123 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 23 hours ago, Celestial said: Does enlightenment eliminate suffering for good? Like is it possible to be completely free in this lifetime, no matter the condition of one's life? Does an awakened person still sometimes suffer even the slightest amount or is the suffering just poof, gone. These are some questions I have about awakening as I think I might have some preconceived ideas about what enlightenment is all about. When you realize "you" are illusion, how one can suffer again? Enlightenment will completely destroy you out. Quote Mention "It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 10 hours ago, Celestial said: There's gotta be some sort of realisation right? I get that 'enlightenment is already the case' and everything but without the direct realisation im just stuck in mind world. Why do you think that we have the saying "A watched pot never boils"? Quote Mention Youtube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestial Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 14 hours ago, Mandy said: Why do you think that we have the saying "A watched pot never boils"? Because the water never seems to boil until you go focus on something else. I don't know, what does that mean in this context? Quote Mention https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ze_e4R9QY&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 1 hour ago, Celestial said: Because the water never seems to boil until you go focus on something else. I don't know, what does that mean in this context? On 4/16/2024 at 4:05 AM, Celestial said: There's gotta be some sort of realisation right? I get that 'enlightenment is already the case' and everything but without the direct realisation im just stuck in mind world. The I that is thought to be watching the pot, the I that is claiming it is stuck in mind world isn't the real I. You imagine direct realization, of the pot boiling, that will fix the sense of lack that something hasn't happened yet that needs to, but you continuously watch yourself. Can you watch, judge yourself to claim that you are stuck in mind world right now? Are there two of you? Quote Mention Youtube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 On 4/16/2024 at 4:15 AM, Celestial said: I could say many things but suffering could be something like not feeling whole or completely fulfilled. I am suffering, I don't know what else to say. I’m with ya on mushrooms & kensho / ‘seeing for yourself. There’s no ‘one way’, yet there’s no substitute. Contemplation wise, if the notions of unwholeness & incompleteness feel discordant / like suffering, ‘the message’ of the offness felt point to the truth of wholeness / completeness, in that the notions or thoughts don’t resonate. On 4/16/2024 at 4:15 AM, Celestial said: No evidence but I also don't have any evidence that freedom isn't the case. Is it being me or am I being it basically, universe wise…right? On 4/16/2024 at 4:15 AM, Celestial said: No matter, as in not dependant on the situations and experiences of life. I don't know man, being alive seems to come with suffering I guess. Matters or doesn’t matter (to me), vs there is or isn’t actually “matter”. Or, Being alive vs Aliveness = Being. Aliveness being a ‘state’, vs intrinsic / unconditional / eternal / always the case. On 4/16/2024 at 4:15 AM, Celestial said: I could act smart and say just a bundle of thoughts, memories, emotions and senses but I do feel like a separate being and it feels like there's other beings I interact with. I feel like… vs thoughts (about) feel like (to me). On 4/16/2024 at 4:15 AM, Celestial said: I could say awareness, consciousness or whatever but it feels like I think and have ideas I think / have ideas… vs ‘I think & have ideas’ is a thought / an idea. Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tim Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 2 hours ago, Phil said: Contemplation wise, if the notions of unwholeness & incompleteness feel discordant / like suffering, ‘the message’ of the offness felt point to the truth of wholeness / completeness, in that the notions or thoughts don’t resonate. Bear with me because this reads in a somewhat confusing way, here. I'm gonna try a synopsis and hope it flows properly. Do call it out, if not. Apparent problem: There is a sense of discord. Thoughts arise that there must be something wrong. Longing and angst, and possibly suffering, arise. Further discord arises. The view appears to be, "there is something wrong here. It is felt here." However, this is somewhat backward and overlooks the very first assumption out of the gate. (Primary and 'overlooked') Being. (Secondary and habitual) Thoughts arise... There is a sense of discord... Thoughts arise that there must be something wrong...Longing...Further discord (longing/angst...): A Poop Loop. Resolution: Stop buying into thought. "Return to"/continue being. What is being? Sensation. Let thoughts alone. No more discord. Rest. Test: Be. Thought arises. Relax and be. How? Feel sensations only. Hear. Bum on chair. Movement in chest. Air on face. Tongue in mouth. Thought arises. Relax and be. How? Fingers on keyboard. Colors and movement. Itch on ear...... ad infinitum. New habit formed. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tim Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 On 4/16/2024 at 4:05 AM, Celestial said: without the direct realisation im just stuck in mind world. Can you feel your face? What you would think of as the sensations of your face. Be those as often as possible for as long as you can. Just be face. Tingly. Warm. Cool. Movement. When mind world comes up again (it'll be quick) be bum. Warm. Pressure. Tingly. When mind world comes up again (it'll be quick) be breath. Cool. Warm. Expanding. Contracting. When mind world comes up again (it'll be quick) be foot. Itchy. Hot. Dense. Tingly. When mind world comes up again (it'll be quick) be whole body. Cool. Dense. Light. Tingly. Itchy. Expanding. Contracting. Pressure. Warm. When mind world comes up again (it'll be quick) be sound. Loud. Quiet. Here. There. Everywhere. Whooshing. Ticking. Popping. Dinging. Chirping. When mind world comes up again (it'll be quick) be love. Warmth. Movement. Pressure. Excitement. Happiness. Pressure. When mind world comes up again (it'll be slightly less quick) be sad... When mind world comes up again (it'll be slightly less quick) be... When mind world comes up again (it'll be less quick) be... When mind world comes up again (it'll be less quick) be... If mind world comes up (at some point) be... If mind world comes up (it could happen) be... If mind world comes up...be... Be. Less mind world; less me. No realization to be had. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 @A Tim Not sure I got it. The new habit formed is being and or relaxing? Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isagi Yoichi Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 Quote Mention for coding & software engineering services message me on discord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tim Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 20 minutes ago, Phil said: @A Tim Not sure I got it. The new habit formed is being and or relaxing? Yes. Indeed. Being is inherently relaxed. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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