Observing vs thought

[Sindela]

Dear,

 

Recently I was attending a Vipassana retreat.

It brought me deeper in my spirituality than I ever was before.

I witnessed very deep and profound insights and states of being.

 

However, on the last day of the retreat, we were allowed to talk, and one of these guys started talking to me, and he made me very confused. And since then it has been bugging me during my meditation. So I want to ask a question about it to help clear my mind.

 

He was asking me about my meditation technique.

I told him I was observing my bodily sensations.

He then asked, what do you mean "observe"

I said "just.. observe.."

He looked at me with an empty stare as if he was unable to grasp what I was saying.

He then said "but you can't just observe, you're thinking"

I got very confused..

He went on to say "you're thinking: "I observe" which is a thought. I think you misunderstood the meditation. It's impossible not to think. It is about not judging what your thoughts are, but you're always thinking"

It became like a very strange conversation of yes / no and I didn't went to go on with him because I felt like it was going nowhere and I certainly wasn't into having a discussion with him.

He ended the conversation with "the greatest meditation teachers are even saying that you can't stop thinking"

 

This really annoyed me, because the whole way I understood Anna panna meditation, is about increasing your focus and awareness. Sit in stillness and keep your mind as focussed and sharp as possible, whenever you go into thought, you realize this, and you again regain your focus.

By doing this, your mind becomes sharper and clearer, less thought and more clarity.

Going on to Vipassana you maintain that practice during the body scan, and observe the sensations as free of thought as possible. Whenever a thought arises, you let it be.

 

Now everytime I meditate this guy comes up in my mind and is telling me how no thought is not possible and I get into this paradoxical circle of whenever I reach clarity of mind it is obstructed by this voice in my head that is trying to tell me the opposite of what I am doing.

 

So I'm here to ask: it is not "strange" to to be observing (or at least try to) without thought, right?

[WhiteOwl]

1 hour ago, Sindela said:

He went on to say "you're thinking: "I observe" which is a thought. I think you misunderstood the meditation. It's impossible not to think. It is about not judging what your thoughts are, but you're always thinking"

That dude sounds like he misunderstood it, i'm sure he would have annoyed me as well. I wouldn't bother remembering him. Observing is not a thought. Press two fingers together and feel(observe) the sensation of that. The longer you keep attention on the sensation, the more you feel. Thats how you develope body-awareness. You make finer distinctions of the body. Obvserving/feeling is not a thought. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sindela said:

This really annoyed me, because the whole way I understood Anna panna meditation, is about increasing your focus and awareness. Sit in stillness and keep your mind as focussed and sharp as possible, whenever you go into thought, you realize this, and you again regain your focus.

By doing this, your mind becomes sharper and clearer, less thought and more clarity

I maybe wouldn't look at it like its about increasing focus and awareness, those are more by-products of the practice. The practice is about letting go out thoughts by returning focus again and again to sensation/feeling of the breath or anything else. The more you practice the longer the space between thoughts will be, and the easier and more swiftly you will be able to let go of thoughts outside of the meditation also = the clarity and awareness you want.

 

Sounds like you do it just about right. Same was as me at least ☺️

Edited October 15, 2023 by WhiteOwl

[Phil]

6 hours ago, Sindela said:

Dear,

 

Recently I was attending a Vipassana retreat.

It brought me deeper in my spirituality than I ever was before.

I witnessed very deep and profound insights and states of being.

 

However, on the last day of the retreat, we were allowed to talk, and one of these guys started talking to me, and he made me very confused. And since then it has been bugging me during my meditation. So I want to ask a question about it to help clear my mind.

 

He was asking me about my meditation technique.

I told him I was observing my bodily sensations.

He then asked, what do you mean "observe"

I said "just.. observe.."

He looked at me with an empty stare as if he was unable to grasp what I was saying.

He then said "but you can't just observe, you're thinking"

I got very confused..

He went on to say "you're thinking: "I observe" which is a thought. I think you misunderstood the meditation. It's impossible not to think. It is about not judging what your thoughts are, but you're always thinking"

‘Observer’ and ‘observed’… are the thoughts… ‘observer’ and ‘observed’. There’s never actually an observer or an observed in perception.

 

It’s not actually possible to think. That might sounds quite odd at first, as it’s not like cultural conditioning. The thinker is essentially the same, it’s the thought… ‘thinker’. These ‘claiming’ thoughts are the “separate self”, “the one” that’s never actually present and has never actually been seen or heard from. 

 

6 hours ago, Sindela said:

It became like a very strange conversation of yes / no and I didn't went to go on with him because I felt like it was going nowhere and I certainly wasn't into having a discussion with him.

He ended the conversation with "the greatest meditation teachers are even saying that you can't stop thinking"

Yes, but because you is the thought… ‘you’.

It’s not possible to stop what never actually started (thinking). 

 

6 hours ago, Sindela said:

 

This really annoyed me, because the whole way I understood Anna panna meditation, is about increasing your focus and awareness.

That’s like saying the awareness and focus of the observer or thinker is going to be increased. Awareness and focus are prior to, aware of and focused upon (or not)… thoughts, as it were. There is no actuality of thinking focus or thinking awareness.

 

Awareness is aware of thoughts about awareness and or focus being imperfect and in need of change. Meditation is like allowing these clouds to pass, revealing the already perfectly illuminating sun. 

 

6 hours ago, Sindela said:

Sit in stillness and keep your mind as focussed and sharp as possible, whenever you go into thought, you realize this, and you again regain your focus.

By doing this, your mind becomes sharper and clearer, less thought and more clarity.

Yes, but there isn’t per se a your mind which is becoming or becomes. That again is the ‘separate self’ of thoughts claiming ‘it’ has a mind. This is verifiable in direct experience in that ‘these’ are not in perception. The thought ‘mind’ is the same as the thought ‘unicorn’.

 

Non-judgment, non-reaction, non-engagement in regard to the activity of thought or thinking is the allowing of the clouds to pass, which is the unfettering of the light (sun)… which is appearing as the (so called)… thoughts. Feeling breathing in the stomach is awareness being aware of awareness (instead of apparent thought activity).

 

6 hours ago, Sindela said:

Going on to Vipassana you maintain that practice during the body scan, and observe the sensations as free of thought as possible. Whenever a thought arises, you let it be.

Yes, great aspect. This allows interpretations to change as thought (and the conditioning & ego therein) is essentially untangled from sensation, emotion and feeling. 

 

6 hours ago, Sindela said:

 

Now everytime I meditate this guy comes up in my mind and is telling me how no thought is not possible and I get into this paradoxical circle of whenever I reach clarity of mind it is obstructed by this voice in my head that is trying to tell me the opposite of what I am doing.

Best to keep meditation simple and let all of those clouds come & go without any engagement. That is the thoughts disentangling from sensation, emotion and feeling.

 

Notice the story or narrative aspect of ‘every time’, about a self in time, and compare with what is actual of direct experience. Try to point to that other self the thoughts are about, and attempt to actually go to that other time. This reveals the sep self of thoughts is surprisingly never actually present. Inversely, that’s commonly referred to as having more awareness, higher consciousness, or improved concentration or focus. More truly, the sun was around long before these thoughts and will be around long after as well.

 

Without the thought ‘I reach clarity’, without that added narrative about a separate self, separate of clarity which reaches or could reach clarity, without that claiming aspect… in non-engagement, more clarity actually shines through as those thoughts come to rest.

 

The claiming aspect is the looping or circular aspect; a ‘thought loop’. Clarity is prior to the thought ‘I’. The thought ‘I’ points prior to the thought “itself” at clarity. Picture a dark street, pitch black, and then a light turning on, and the clarity of it. Much would be “seen” which wasn’t before. 

 

‘Voice’ in my head is also a thought. Might be an audible-thought, but note the distinction between hearing a voice and a thought that is as if a voice. It’ll help pull the rug out from under the implied-by-thought sep self which is (thought to be) separate of you, and is (is thought to be) trying to or even could try to tell you anything. Keep it simple and just let that cloud pass as well.

 

6 hours ago, Sindela said:

 

So I'm here to ask: it is not "strange" to to be observing (or at least try to) without thought, right?

Meditation isn’t about attempting to stop thought or stopping thinking as that would imply a doer doing, just like an observer observing or a thinker thinking. It really is actually just more thoughts. The cessation of thought activity happens naturally as awareness is aware of awareness (as apposed to thought activity (clouds) about a separate self / individual / ego). Cessation of conditioning (initially and largely the activity of thought) is dispelled and it’s like being born again, or born for the first time, or like being a kid again, or a kid for the first time.

 

It is indeed not possible to be observing without thought, because ‘be observing’ is a thought. There is already no observer. 

[James123]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:01 AM, Sindela said:

Dear,

 

Recently I was attending a Vipassana retreat.

It brought me deeper in my spirituality than I ever was before.

I witnessed very deep and profound insights and states of being.

 

However, on the last day of the retreat, we were allowed to talk, and one of these guys started talking to me, and he made me very confused. And since then it has been bugging me during my meditation. So I want to ask a question about it to help clear my mind.

 

He was asking me about my meditation technique.

I told him I was observing my bodily sensations.

He then asked, what do you mean "observe"

I said "just.. observe.."

He looked at me with an empty stare as if he was unable to grasp what I was saying.

He then said "but you can't just observe, you're thinking"

I got very confused..

He went on to say "you're thinking: "I observe" which is a thought. I think you misunderstood the meditation. It's impossible not to think. It is about not judging what your thoughts are, but you're always thinking"

It became like a very strange conversation of yes / no and I didn't went to go on with him because I felt like it was going nowhere and I certainly wasn't into having a discussion with him.

He ended the conversation with "the greatest meditation teachers are even saying that you can't stop thinking"

 

This really annoyed me, because the whole way I understood Anna panna meditation, is about increasing your focus and awareness. Sit in stillness and keep your mind as focussed and sharp as possible, whenever you go into thought, you realize this, and you again regain your focus.

By doing this, your mind becomes sharper and clearer, less thought and more clarity.

Going on to Vipassana you maintain that practice during the body scan, and observe the sensations as free of thought as possible. Whenever a thought arises, you let it be.

 

Now everytime I meditate this guy comes up in my mind and is telling me how no thought is not possible and I get into this paradoxical circle of whenever I reach clarity of mind it is obstructed by this voice in my head that is trying to tell me the opposite of what I am doing.

 

So I'm here to ask: it is not "strange" to to be observing (or at least try to) without thought, right?

Observer is a thought itself, drop both.