Difficulty Letting go of Thoughts

[Orb]

@Phil now. 👍 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Orb said:

@Phil would you say the first step is to love thoughts and let thoughts be transmuted and over time things quiet down? 

First step to what?

[Orb]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

First step to what?

Ooo you got "me". That time belief is sneaky.

[Phil]

@Orb

It’s really noticing the activity of thought, and bringing it to rest. Thoughts of steps can’t lead to bringing thought to rest in a future. It’s now or not.

Loving thoughts… loving all that is, or nonduality, is already the case. Is already the actuality. What all the hoopla’s about.

The actuality is only obscured by thoughts and beliefs.  

[Loop]

3 hours ago, Orb said:

Tomorrow morning during meditation if the footsteps come back ill give it a shot. 

It is better in the moment. If you don’t get any on those two try “I can express anger with her”, just to see if there is energy there. 
 

You can also do it through visualization, doesn’t necessarily have to be in the moment.

 

[Orb]

@Phil what meditation is supposed to do isnt happening in this experience. Is there an alternative? I think im a noobie at this and i didnt know it lol. 

 

It's incredibly frustrating, because it's all just thoughts. Thoughts arise about focusing on the breath. How do I know I'm focusing on the breath and meditating or if I'm just believing the thought that I am? It's so confusing. 

 

I think you may naturally just be better at meditation because the way you talk about sounds like you just sit down and when you focus on the breath thoughts disappear or fizzle out as you say, yet when I do it it's like daydreaming but instead I'm sitting in a cool monk like posture and thinking I'm meditating. 

 

Also I can't control thoughts, I started off the day solution oriented and that was nice and all but the moment I stopped journal random shit came up in my head like music, old conversations with people, just random stuff. I don't see how you can consistently have the same kinds of thoughts 24/7. 

 

When I meditate now I only get annoyed and lose my shit because it's impossible. All this talk about it being easy and effortless yet it seems super natural. 

[Orb]

@Phil im not saying it's impossible to let go of thoughts and to reveal the big breakthrough, but itsounds extremely rare and only people who are karmicly ready for it witness it. 

 

I mean there's billions of people, millions of them meditate daily, 1000s have spiritual awakenings, and I'd say a couple 100 of them get to the depths where thoughts stop arising, like come on this stuff does not sound easy for anyone lol. If so how come billions of people are stuck in thought attachment. 

 

It's enough to realize you aren't thoughts and there's no thinker. But for thoughts to stop arising completely? That's just crazy. 

 

Also the idea of always experiencing pure positive thought feels like a carrot on a stick, I've never experienced life like that, I've tried to and it doesn't work, yet I've heard it is possible so I keep chasing this ideal. But there's always the thought of I haven't done enough, I'm just doing it wrong, I need more time, more practices, techniques, etc. 

 

At this point why not just give up? 

[Phil]

@Orb

All beliefs coming up. Conditioning. Discord. 

Return attention to feeling breathing in the stomach. 

Express via a journal. 

[Orb]

@Phil🥹when will it end

Edited September 12, 2023 by Orb

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Orb said:

@Phil what meditation is supposed to do isnt happening in this experience. Is there an alternative? I think im a noobie at this and i didnt know it lol. 

 

It's incredibly frustrating, because it's all just thoughts. Thoughts arise about focusing on the breath. How do I know I'm focusing on the breath and meditating or if I'm just believing the thought that I am? It's so confusing. 

 

I think you may naturally just be better at meditation because the way you talk about sounds like you just sit down and when you focus on the breath thoughts disappear or fizzle out as you say, yet when I do it it's like daydreaming but instead I'm sitting in a cool monk like posture and thinking I'm meditating. 

 

Also I can't control thoughts, I started off the day solution oriented and that was nice and all but the moment I stopped journal random shit came up in my head like music, old conversations with people, just random stuff. I don't see how you can consistently have the same kinds of thoughts 24/7. 

 

When I meditate now I only get annoyed and lose my shit because it's impossible. All this talk about it being easy and effortless yet it seems super natural. 

 

2 hours ago, Orb said:

@Phil im not saying it's impossible to let go of thoughts and to reveal the big breakthrough, but itsounds extremely rare and only people who are karmicly ready for it witness it. 

 

I mean there's billions of people, millions of them meditate daily, 1000s have spiritual awakenings, and I'd say a couple 100 of them get to the depths where thoughts stop arising, like come on this stuff does not sound easy for anyone lol. If so how come billions of people are stuck in thought attachment. 

 

It's enough to realize you aren't thoughts and there's no thinker. But for thoughts to stop arising completely? That's just crazy. 

 

Also the idea of always experiencing pure positive thought feels like a carrot on a stick, I've never experienced life like that, I've tried to and it doesn't work, yet I've heard it is possible so I keep chasing this ideal. But there's always the thought of I haven't done enough, I'm just doing it wrong, I need more time, more practices, techniques, etc. 

 

At this point why not just give up? 

Of everything shared there, what or which specifically do you believe or know to be absolutely true?

[Orb]

@Phil that it's rare to get to the point of thoughts no longer arising or the big breakthrough as I've heard you call it. 

[Phil]

@Orb

I agree with you. It seems exceptionally rare. Your estimate actually seems high lol, more like zero.
 

What comes to mind as to why it’s rare? 

[Orb]

6 minutes ago, Phil said:

@Orb

I agree with you. It seems exceptionally rare. Your estimate actually seems high lol. 

What comes to mind as to why it’s rare? 

It seems genetic, like it's rooted deep in nature, it awakens within people randomly, no one chooses this, it chooses us randomly. For some people it's just natural to them, for most it's just an ideal for their whole life until they die.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Orb

[Phil]

@Orb

Understandable. I’ve ever heard teacher’s which claim to be teaching truth say genetics plays a role. 

Now how is it absolutely true that genetics don’t play any role at all?

[Orb]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

@Orb

Understandable. I’ve ever heard teacher’s which claiming to be teaching truth say genetics plays a role. 

Now how is it absolutely true that genetics don’t play any role at all?

I'm not sure, genetics are prior to thoughts, natural forces of creation. 

 

How can I try something a million times and see no fruition and then someone else meditates and wakes up completely? There's clearly a force prior to any of us that awakens in people and people can never force it to happen. 

 

I meditate and it feels like day dreaming but in a cool buddha pose, you do it and experience the breakthrough, clearly there's something deeper that is behind the difference in our paths. 

[Phil]

39 minutes ago, Orb said:

I'm not sure, genetics are prior to thoughts, natural forces of creation. 

If genetics are prior to thoughts, and the actual experience of genetics is of the thought (genetics) - what’s thought attachment? 

 

39 minutes ago, Orb said:

How can I try something a million times and see no fruition and then someone else meditates and wakes up completely?

Several aspects come to mind and all coincide with the experience of meditation.

A million is a gross exaggeration. Truth is of course honesty, sincerity, authenticity, not exaggerations. 

Assumption. Anyone who sits down to meditate for any amount of time and awakens merely believed people awaken - thought attachment. 

Assumption. I try something. The dualistic nature of the thought implying a second self and something is overlooked. 

Assumption that there is someone else is identified as the separate self, or perhaps body and or so called finite. Mind.

Assumption. Completely. As if people awaken and there are levels of awakening(s). 

 

39 minutes ago, Orb said:

There's clearly a force prior to any of us that awakens in people and people can never force it to happen. 

That’s an assumption based on the a priori believe there are people and awakening is an it.  

 

39 minutes ago, Orb said:

 

I meditate and it feels like day dreaming but in a cool buddha pose, you do it and experience the breakthrough, clearly there's something deeper that is behind the difference in our paths. 

Assumption is the breakthrough is an experience, and there is someone else who experienced ‘it’. What’s ‘deeper’ is the beliefs. The activity of thought. Also, Phil was interested in the truth and studied quantum mechanics for years. You’re interested in getting something. The one who gets can not awaken. That’s not awakening. That’s a belief. 

[Orb]

@Phil thought attachment is what society conditioned me with, starting by giving me a name. The conditioning was imposed on me, the belief I can be freed from this was also imposed on me. 

 

You were interested in truth, there's something fundamental prior to thought that gave you that motivation, in the same way that my motivation is different because I'm not able to awaken, it's just an ideal, the universe doesn't want to awaken in this experience. 

 

I can't not want what I have been told will free me from suffering. It's too late for that. I'm guessing in your experience you were never exposed to the idea of enlightenment so it was innocent curiosity for you?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Orb

[Orb]

I'm tired of being tired. I'm tired of being a student or seeker or believer. 

 

I'm already awake/enlightened, fuck it. 

 

I'm done, and no one else has to know this. 

[Phil]

37 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Phil thought attachment is what society conditioned me with, starting by giving me a name. The conditioning was imposed on me, the belief I can be freed from this was also imposed on me. 

Assumptions…

Separation. Society and me. The separate self.  That other exists. 

Multiple entities experience conditioning or thought attachment. 

Separation & multiple entities - that other, society, conditioned you. 

Assertion. That conditioning was imposed on you. 

And an underlying assumption, there is another way / a better way to go about creation / creation isn’t you. 

That there is any of these things. 

 

37 minutes ago, Orb said:

 

You were interested in truth, there's something fundamental prior to thought that gave you that motivation, in the same way that my motivation is different because I'm not able to awaken, it's just an ideal, the universe doesn't want to awaken in this experience. 

Assumptions…

There is someone else. Another entity different than, other than, you. 

That motivation is actual or real.

That there’s a separate self (which is not able to awaken).

That people or separate selves exist, and awaken. 

That an ideal isn’t an ideal, a thought, but is awakening. 

That a universe exists, wants, and awakens and or doesn’t. 

That there is experience. 

 

37 minutes ago, Orb said:

I can't not want what I have been told will free me from suffering.

Assumptions…

Sure sounds like meditation & inspecting beliefs is unwanted. 

That a me is freed from suffering. 

That thought attachment, identity, me of thoughts, is other than suffering. 

 

37 minutes ago, Orb said:

It's too late for that.

Assumptions…

There’s time passing. 

Awakening is other than you (‘that’). 

That awakening is somehow contingent on time. 

 

37 minutes ago, Orb said:

I'm guessing in your experience you were never exposed to the idea of enlightenment so it was innocent curiosity for you?

Assumptions…

There’s a you as in yours. 

That there is experience. 

That innocence is dualistic. 

That an idea could be enlightenment. 

That curiosity implies a separate self. 

[Phil]

54 minutes ago, Orb said:

I'm tired of being tired. I'm tired of being a student or seeker or believer. 

 

I'm already awake/enlightened, fuck it. 

 

I'm done, and no one else has to know this. 

Not tired of others and discord / focusing on limitation, lack, shortage and unwanted though.

 

Without expectations meditation’s deeply peaceful and relaxing.