Inno Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 What is Feeling? How is it different than sensation? When meditating and relaxing the body, at some point the sensation of my legs, arms and "inner body" gets quite intense. However when focusing on my stomach area I often feel sort of like a block there, as in there is some space which I'm not allowed to enter. An Ice block that I can't feel the insides of so to speak. What is emotion in that regard? How to "feel fully" a certain emotion, in order to discharge tension? How to express an emotion? Isn't all expression an expression of thoughts? How can I express emotion, it is not in thought? Certainly, as @Phil often says, certain thoughts feel discordant and it can clearly be seen sometimes. However sometimes there is some tension, heaviness that I can't quite put my finger on. Specific thoughts don't come to mind and it seems like it is not just discordant thoughts. More like acumulated stress or emotional baggage. When I sit down with the intention to write most of the time I'm at a loss. I don't know which emotion is felt. Maybe it's despair or helplessness and then I don't know what to do in order to move up the scale. Am I doing anything related to emotional healing when meditating? Or relaxing the body and focusing on breathing is just that and understanding emotion and emotional expression fall into another category? Jeez, a lot of questions. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 10 hours ago, Inno said: What is Feeling? Feeling is feeling. Helium. What is feeling is the thought what is feeling. Helium appearing as a balloon. The balloons obscure the helium. Unconditional appearing as conditions. A who is asking a who what Horton is, via Horton believing in whos. Infinite can not know finite. No mind is not a state. 10 hours ago, Inno said: How is it different than sensation? Outwardly; perception and the thought, ‘bodies’. Inwardly; sensation. 10 hours ago, Inno said: When meditating and relaxing the body, at some point the sensation of my legs, arms and "inner body" gets quite intense. However when focusing on my stomach area I often feel sort of like a block there, as in there is some space which I'm not allowed to enter. An Ice block that I can't feel the insides of so to speak. The Unseeable Iceberg & Expression: How It All Coming Apart - Is Actually It All Coming Together 10 hours ago, Inno said: What is emotion in that regard? How thoughts feel. 10 hours ago, Inno said: How to "feel fully" a certain emotion, in order to discharge tension? What is the thought which the emotion arises in response to? Is emotion not the compass Home? Tension is the tense I am in; past, present, future. The contraction of sensation denotes this is not the case. Presence Is. The illusion is fundamentally “I’m here”. The knower knows this. Therein the thought is a misinterpretation, a belief, and alignment is the remedy. 10 hours ago, Inno said: How to express an emotion? “I’m feeling _______” 10 hours ago, Inno said: Isn't all expression an expression of thoughts? Has ye never hugged nor been hugged? Simply extend one to the next stranger on your path and you will find what you are looking for. 10 hours ago, Inno said: How can I express emotion, it is not in thought? “I’m feeling ________.” How is the pastime of the wise (fools). 10 hours ago, Inno said: Certainly, as @Phil often says, certain thoughts feel discordant and it can clearly be seen sometimes. However sometimes there is some tension, heaviness that I can't quite put my finger on. Specific thoughts don't come to mind and it seems like it is not just discordant thoughts. More like acumulated stress or emotional baggage. The knower already knows. Emptying is not an adding. A full cup can not be made full. 10 hours ago, Inno said: When I sit down with the intention to write most of the time I'm at a loss. I don't know which emotion is felt. Maybe it's despair or helplessness and then I don't know what to do in order to move up the scale. Helplessness isn’t an emotion, as in is not felt. It is the concept, helplessness, which is felt. Ask humbly within to be lead and you shall receive without fail and without exception. Attempt to lead and the utterly pungent fear, despair & powerlessness tell you the truth of you. Listen. 10 hours ago, Inno said: Am I doing anything related to emotional healing when meditating? What is a doer? That which is sought is neither doing nor thinking. Why, oh why, would it seem that doing and thinking would lead to that which is not? 10 hours ago, Inno said: Or relaxing the body and focusing on breathing is just that and understanding emotion and emotional expression fall into another category? Jeez, a lot of questions. Why is it that all of the problems of the world stem from man’s unwillingness to sit quietly in a room alone? Sometimes a ‘seeing’ happens. Without getting personal, it’s entirely possible for someone’s day in and day out to be in service, but for it all to be contextualized as about a self. Mentally it is a highly stretched or pulled apart paradox being upheld for no reason sans fear, though it is unknown what the fear is actually of, and the cause or source of fear has not been considered, questioned, inspected. When the balloon is popped (that one is not the thoughts or idea of oneself being upheld) the entire ‘system’ / process of thinking falls apart, and there is a fallout. It is right for the ‘system’ to fail, collapse. It is inevitable. Time is needed to recover. One too busy for recovery is one too busy to see this. But when the balloon is popped indeed feeling, which seems unfindable or missing, does come flooding in one hundred fold for the good done in the name of good, unbeknownst to the self, and washes much out. Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solereproduction Posted August 1, 2023 Share Posted August 1, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: What is Feeling? How is it different than sensation? When meditating and relaxing the body, at some point the sensation of my legs, arms and "inner body" gets quite intense. However when focusing on my stomach area I often feel sort of like a block there, as in there is some space which I'm not allowed to enter. An Ice block that I can't feel the insides of so to speak. What is emotion in that regard? How to "feel fully" a certain emotion, in order to discharge tension? How to express an emotion? Isn't all expression an expression of thoughts? How can I express emotion, it is not in thought? Certainly, as @Phil often says, certain thoughts feel discordant and it can clearly be seen sometimes. However sometimes there is some tension, heaviness that I can't quite put my finger on. Specific thoughts don't come to mind and it seems like it is not just discordant thoughts. More like acumulated stress or emotional baggage. When I sit down with the intention to write most of the time I'm at a loss. I don't know which emotion is felt. Maybe it's despair or helplessness and then I don't know what to do in order to move up the scale. Am I doing anything related to emotional healing when meditating? Or relaxing the body and focusing on breathing is just that and understanding emotion and emotional expression fall into another category? Jeez, a lot of questions. Simple answer to your first two rhetorical questions is individual's senses of touching or being touched by things other than self physically and intellectually. Emotions are the brain comparing past against current events changing total sum of what has existed to situation arriving next, now. Brain has to have a sense or proportion to the environment one is existing in as individually here. Emotions are the induced intellect created by muscle memories of being mobile in stationary time energy is created by contracting results expanding details never same total sum again. A person since birth is trained socially to believe anything is possible regardless which reality they intellectually choose to belong in. Humanity is the series of doubts created within this species, by this species within itself each generation gap existed and existing forward here. Relative time is comparing relatives still adapting in space timed apart now as conceived to dead from inception to extinction arrives when great great grandchildren aren't being born here one at a time. Universe is simple compounding events working in series parallel time now. From inanimate objects to ancestral positions Nothing stays the same form since shaped one of a kind. Natural perpetual motion has specific limitations at the universal level here now. Balancing outcomes of incoming replacements. Conceived to decomposed lifetimes uniquely here. Instincts navigate situation, intellect plots a course of behavior while evolving as part of the whole processing never exceeding spontaneously going forward now. All intellectual truths are within this process, just not as defined by statistically averaging past and current events into what is expected to arrive next rotation of the planet. The basic reasons humans socially self destruct protecting ideologies now isn't eternity. Pick a reality, not a one honestly ever explains evolving in real time. Relative time is adopted intellectually between every ideologies typecasting this species by race, creed, color, national origin, gender bias, spiritual/philosophical, psychological/politics, ethics/economics, social/ancestral patterns of behavior when defending possibilities life isn't being genetically eternally separated here. Morality, legality, ethics, economics, academia, arts, political wings, spiritual feet, promises made, secrets kept. 10 compounding ways to corrupt your own ancestry from within societal evolution governing genetic outcomes using sibling rivalry emotions between idealists saving humanities where every reality has its people believing to be the chosen people to inherit the earth to which they are natively here naturally eternally separated reproductively displaced. Beware of what you wish true. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inno Posted August 1, 2023 Author Share Posted August 1, 2023 (edited) @Phil Thanks for your reply. On 7/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Phil said: Feeling is feeling. Helium. So no way to "not feel" or block/supress feeling? Reading my OP, I guess the whole post can be simplified as to: 1. There is discord/suffering felt 2. I want to feel better 3. How the hell? On 7/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Phil said: Is emotion not the compass Home? Maybe, I dont know. It's a good feeling analogy tho. I think I've been "Home", however never walked the road back Home from far away, if that makes sense. I've just happened to be Home. Quote Tension is the tense I am in; past, present, future. The contraction of sensation denotes this is not the case. Presence Is. The illusion is fundamentally “I’m here”. The knower knows this. Therein the thought is a misinterpretation, a belief, and alignment is the remedy. Why is there tension now and not when I was 12 or 15? I was even more convinced I am a 12-15 year old boy with the story back then? On 7/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Phil said: Has ye never hugged nor been hugged? Simply extend one to the next stranger on your path and you will find what you are looking for. I have. Can I hug-away myself up the emotional scale towards feeling good? Maybe there is a fixation upon writing as being the only way to express. And following the emotional scale as being the way. And myself as being unable to do so, no matter how many times I've tried. On 7/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Phil said: “I’m feeling ________.” How is the pastime of the wise (fools). Sounds dang simple. When I try to sit down and write I often times find it difficult to just pinpoint. Even now. No How? Sounds hell of a close to know-how, lol. On 7/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Phil said: Helplessness isn’t an emotion, as in is not felt. It is the concept, helplessness, which is felt. Ask humbly within to be lead and you shall receive without fail and without exception. Attempt to lead and the utterly pungent fear, despair & powerlessness tell you the truth of you. Listen. How do I tell the difference between emotion felt and a concept which does not resonate and is being felt? The latter resonates and honestly, I've decided that when I'm distressed or can't think straight, I will just breathe it through and let the storm pass. Maybe it's not the best time to inquire and "try" to express when in such. Also, a question regarding projection. Can projection be happening upon "myself" rather than projecting onto others? Still the emotion is felt, however it is believed to be about myself? On 7/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Phil said: Sometimes a ‘seeing’ happens. Without getting personal, it’s entirely possible for someone’s day in and day out to be in service, but for it all to be contextualized as about a self. Mentally it is a highly stretched or pulled apart paradox being upheld for no reason sans fear, though it is unknown what the fear is actually of, and the cause or source of fear has not been considered, questioned, inspected. When the balloon is popped (that one is not the thoughts or idea of oneself being upheld) the entire ‘system’ / process of thinking falls apart, and there is a fallout. It is right for the ‘system’ to fail, collapse. It is inevitable. Time is needed to recover. One too busy for recovery is one too busy to see this. But when the balloon is popped indeed feeling, which seems unfindable or missing, does come flooding in one hundred fold for the good done in the name of good, unbeknownst to the self, and washes much out. What comes to mind, I've recently had an acid trip (first one that I consider a real trip) and it was very clear that there is nothing to be afraid of or ashamed of. Like literally, a thought came to mind during that time "what should I be afraid of?" and "What should I be ashamed of?" and literally imagined myself being old, wearing a diaper, a full one:) And it felt like there is nothing to be ashamed of, kind of owned it. So in a sense during that time and a few days afterwards fear was seen through. Not in the sense that "fearful" thoughts did not appear, but after appearing they were seen through as being irreleveant. During this 4-5 days I've experienced openness, new stuff happening to me, being open to other people, ideas about businesses and what I want to do were coming easily. However in a weeks time everything came back to "normal". Maybe this is what people refer to as Ego backlash, idk. Too busy for recovery... maybe. Maybe I should just take a sabbatical and leave in a village for a month, idk. I just feel like all of the thoughts "thunk" during the discord are so sticky, so familiar and so convincing that i get sucked into it again. For now, stomach breaths. Edited August 1, 2023 by Inno Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inno Posted August 1, 2023 Author Share Posted August 1, 2023 @solereproduction my man, nothing simple about your response, lol :D Maps of meaning comes to mind, as a concept by JBP. It's interesting how your response is like a very complex map of the world, explaining direct experience with those concepts. Jordan Peterson's view is that a person develops such a one with his/her life experience and maybe "negative emotion" is just a wrong map, idk. But it's funny how @Phil's attitude and spirituality in general is more like "Burn the freaking map, you don't need it", while the general view is "build a comprehensive map". Which way to go?:) Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Posted August 1, 2023 Share Posted August 1, 2023 (edited) I think the answer you're looking for is to experience whatever comes up. We tend to suppress and keep putting off processing emotions and trauma so it continues to linger. So dig deep, sort of listen to those suppressed thoughts that we've had for so long we go nose blind to them, but they're still there in a way like a light Tinnitus, we just have a hard time recognizing them. For instance a seemingly benign experience in Kindergarten when a kid made fun of you, when your parent scared you by yelling, it's all kinds of stuff we accumulate. To process them you deconstruct the reasoning behind them such as "that's how they were treated so they treated me like that, most people grow and learn to not do that, and this doesn't make life not great." But first I think it's important to fully feel the emotion, cry, scream, let yourself feel sad, angry, .... Edited August 1, 2023 by Devin Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 1, 2023 Share Posted August 1, 2023 On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: So no way to "not feel" or block/supress feeling? Exactly, yes. There is no way to not feel. Thought can make it seem so but only seemingly. In large part this is because feeling is often thought to be finite, as if a thing inside the body etc. Thoughts like my feelings and how I feel obscure the truth. All is / is ‘made of’ feeling; thought make it seem otherwise. Even the thoughts ‘themselves’ are feeling / are ‘made of’ feeling. One way to notice this is to notice that when there are thoughts about suppressing feeling, there is how those thoughts feel, and so feeling isn’t absent. But this is very much the Good news. Feeling is never what thought ‘says’ it is. The word / thought ‘feeling’ just points. The ‘path’ as it were is all about discovering the truth of feeling, as in what is absolute and unchanging under any & all situations & circumstances. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: Reading my OP, I guess the whole post can be simplified as to: 1. There is discord/suffering felt How thoughts feel, discordant vs aligned, is like breadcrumbs leading to the truth. Not someone going somewhere or getting to or obtaining. Much more inspecting. Finding out what this moment right now actually is, as it is, without any interpretations added. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: 2. I want to feel better Nothing is needed, and also there are methods available which can make a big difference. Inspecting thoughts can be clarifying & illuminating. One can literally question a thought like that for example. Who or what is the ‘I’ the thought is about? Who or what knows that it is is not already the greatest feeling there could ever possibly be? Put another way, inspection of thoughts is like questioning that there might be many assumptions. There might also be judgmental thoughts about feeling not being enough already, which are dispelled when inspected. These discordant thoughts just fizzle out and don’t arise after being thoroughly inspected. There’s a thread from yesterday to all about this called Deflection, Projection and Purification that might be insightful. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: 3. How the hell? The entire website, Youtube channel and forum is really all about this. I’m glad you’re here and asking the things you’re asking. This is really the whole point. 🙂 None of the content or suggestions are supplemental with respect to daily morning meditation however. You might even go so far as to say the entire thing is like a sales pitch, and maybe some reassurance & suggestions from direct experience to make the emptying that coincides with daily meditation a little clearer or maybe easier. Twice a day is better than once. Three times a day is better than two. The ‘situation’ is seemingly paradoxical in that I can’t say enough good things about meditation, and at the same time nothing I say is actually true about meditation. It like saying ‘to see the truth about China, go to China’. And a lot of questions & concerns might come up. There’s responses that might be helpful for those, but none of the responses are a supplement for the direct experience of actuality of China. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: Why is there tension now and not when I was 12 or 15? I was even more convinced I am a 12-15 year old boy with the story back then? The ‘story’ is now. It’s never not been now. Thoughts, or believing thoughts rather, is a tricky experience. With meditation it’s like surface level thoughts fizzle out, and then more babe ind the scenes thoughts fizzle out, and then behind the scenes of behind the scenes thoughts fizzles out, and essentially as that occurs, simultaneously you (or reality depending on the perspective) are unfettered of ignorance, assumptions and beliefs, and reality is ‘seen as it is’. Meditation seems to have positive and beneficial effects with respect to the body, relationships, endeavors and really experience, creation, life all around… but what’s actually transpiring is all of the beliefs to the contrary are ‘falling away’. Like unwrapping a present. The present doesn’t change, the difference is the wrapping paper was removed. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: I have. Can I hug-away myself up the emotional scale towards feeling good? Maybe there is a fixation upon writing as being the only way to express. And following the emotional scale as being the way. And myself as being unable to do so, no matter how many times I've tried. This has high potential to be taken personally and seem offensive. It’s not at all meant that way. Notice what was suggested is hugging a stranger… but the interpretation which arose is all about a me or myself. That’s kind of indicative of ‘the path’ and what’s being said. It’s quite shocking in the best possible way, just how different life is without interpretation arising / seeing reality as it is. The “problem” is words, even the greatest of words, can never actually convey just how Good, Good is. One can express away One’s “self” via using the scale, yes. The fundamental aspect there is again, believing thoughts / thought attachment. The scale is very much like meditation. Uncovering. Unfettering. With the scale & journaling think in terms of expressing, allowing, unfettering and uncovering Goodness… and not doing, getting, changing or trying - and Goodness being a result of effort. The latter is the activity of thought, that which fizzles out meditatively. It’s all apparent & interpretational, where is Goodness is nondual. We could also use words like The Great Feeling, Happiness, Joy, Total Awesomeness, Consciousness, Awareness, etc. All words can only point & all words are already what’s being pointed to. So, thoughts don’t “work” for this endeavor of uncovering of… thoughts. Again, certainly not meant as derogatory or personal… but ‘how many times I’ve tried’ etc is transpiring as the content of thoughts. Weird as it may sound, idk, there isn’t that ‘self’ thoughts are about. That is what’s obscuring feeling. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: Sounds dang simple. When I try to sit down and write I often times find it difficult to just pinpoint. Even now. No How? Sounds hell of a close to know-how, lol. It’s mind-bogglingly simple. It doesn’t seem simple as thoughts arise on behalf of a ‘separate self’ of thoughts. Doesn’t seem like thoughts initially, seems like a self. With meditation, using the scale and the like, it’s inevitably recognized to be like a set up, and that there isn’t that self of thoughts is the punchline. The Great Relief. One approach is to write down on a piece of paper (vs trying to think or remember this - which doesn’t work) that there are two activities: 1) thinking. 2) filling in the blank - I’m feeling ___________ (emotion). Then question which activity is currently experienced. It’s so simple that suggestion could almost be taken as offensive, but what makes it not simple is thoughts arising and being believed or obscuring. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: How do I tell the difference between emotion felt and a concept which does not resonate and is being felt? When a concept which does not resonate is felt - emotion is guidance as to why. Initially we could say it’s like information about the concept or why the thought or concept feels discordant. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: The latter resonates and honestly, I've decided that when I'm distressed or can't think straight, I will just breathe it through and let the storm pass. Maybe it's not the best time to inquire and "try" to express when in such. A way to communicate the difference… Old approach: self referential thoughts. Thoughts about a self… the one who decided, the one who’s distressed, the one who can’t think straight, the one who will just breathe, the one who knows it’s not a good time to inquire. New approach: I’m feeling the emotion _________________. Simplest approach is looking at the scale and going with whatever emotion seems most accurate. If it’s really unclear, start at the bottom of the scale. The difference between the two approaches is conceptualizing vs expression. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: Also, a question regarding projection. Can projection be happening upon "myself" rather than projecting onto others? Still the emotion is felt, however it is believed to be about myself? Emotion is how thoughts feel. The thoughts could be about anything or anyone. That myself is in quotations. The quotations denote that there isn’t really that myself. That which there isn’t really… like a unicorn… nothing could be projected upon. Could projection be onto a ‘separate self’ of thought? Well, there are the thoughts, there isn’t the ‘separate self’ the thoughts imply. So this would be believing the thoughts to the tune that there is believed to be a myself. In all cases awareness / consciousness is aware of thoughts. Again, it’s simplicity, the already what’s actual aspect which can be tricky… or can seem tricky… via the believing of thoughts, and there is just no explanation or words which can be supplement meditation & expression. All words, concepts, pointings, etc are essentially addings… while meditation & expression are unfetterings Do people project onto each other? Yes, entirely. But so entirely that the belief there are people / other people is only projection. So in actuality, no. If it’s believed you’re a person, that interpretation is prior to pretty much all experience. Meditatively, this is the surface level activity of thought fizzling out, then the behind the surface thoughts fizzling out and so on. Inevitably, of that inward homeward orientation, all activity of thought fizzles out and then it’s clearly seen it never actually happened, but was only thought to. Then there’s just complete and utter satisfaction. But see - these words which point are not that which they point to. This is the proverbial ‘finger pointing’, and you have to go see the ‘moon’. On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Inno said: What comes to mind, I've recently had an acid trip (first one that I consider a real trip) and it was very clear that there is nothing to be afraid of or ashamed of. Like literally, a thought came to mind during that time "what should I be afraid of?" and "What should I be ashamed of?" and literally imagined myself being old, wearing a diaper, a full one:) And it felt like there is nothing to be ashamed of, kind of owned it. So in a sense during that time and a few days afterwards fear was seen through. Not in the sense that "fearful" thoughts did not appear, but after appearing they were seen through as being irreleveant. During this 4-5 days I've experienced openness, new stuff happening to me, being open to other people, ideas about businesses and what I want to do were coming easily. However in a weeks time everything came back to "normal". Maybe this is what people refer to as Ego backlash, idk. Too busy for recovery... maybe. Maybe I should just take a sabbatical and leave in a village for a month, idk. I just feel like all of the thoughts "thunk" during the discord are so sticky, so familiar and so convincing that i get sucked into it again. For now, stomach breaths. Thought is very tricky. There is no ego as a separate entity which could be rightfully attributed with doing anything at all, such as backlashing. It’s a belief just like unicorn. It’s a belief expressed as a concept heard and believed. Conjecture. It wasn’t true in the first place and isn’t true right now. Obviously there are not two you’s, yes? “Ego backlash” is a concept. Without that concept… emotions felt are readily acknowledged. Discordant beliefs are therein readily dispelled. Psychedelics heighten attention to perception & sensation. Indirectly, attention is withdrawn from thoughts. Much activity of thought is self referential, thoughts about a self. Without meditation, expression and questioning thoughts… the same un-inspected thought activity resumes, the same discordant emotions are felt, and the ‘trip wisdom’ or ‘insight’ is conceptualized to be in accordance with, s ‘separate self’. ‘There is nothing to be afraid of or ashamed of’ is a self referential thought, in hindsight of the clarity of the trip. It implies there is a separate of nothing self which is not nothing, which is some thing, but for which there are things, but isn’t any thing which it needs to be afraid of or ashamed of. One way to point to the difference using the scale can make, is fear would be readily acknowledged as an emotion felt which is guidance for thoughts - as opposed to a separate self which is or isn’t afraid, or does or doesn’t have any thing to be afraid of. The scale is particularly useful in differentiating conceptualizations (thinking) of emotion, from emotion (felt), in that shame isn’t on the scale. In that case there also wouldn’t be the concept that fear was seen through. This again is a concept about a separate self, which isn’t present - but in a past, saw through fear. It’s a claiming essentially, which perpetuates the very obscuring… while meditation, expression and using the scale - unobscure. Fear isn’t a thing, object. Fear is an emotion, guidance. “Normal” in this sense is actually the belief in normal, a conceptualization of actuality. Same as ‘my baseline consciousness’, / ‘my normal state of consciousness’ or ‘the relative’. These and ‘ego backlash’ are incompatible with meditation, expression & the scale, as they’re the very concepts / beliefs / interpretations / self referential thoughts which one is unfettering of. All of the conceptual verbiage is well thought out and purposefully misleading. You’re experiencing the fallout of having bee deeply misled, and now have all of those unnecessary beliefs to dispel and unfetter of. It is not at all surprising that you’re asking what feeling is. I feel for ya, I really do, but it doesn’t help to put lipstick on a pig. Without the concepts, the trips are unfettering. This situation is unique in that the concepts weren’t / aren’t unfettered yet, and arise unknowing conceptualizing the otherwise (‘permanently’) unfettering trip. Thus meditation, expression & some kind of recognition of emotions such as the scale are fundamental. Arising from that, is the notion of a should on behalf of the separate self, as if one needs the circumstances to change (going on sabbatical) for there to be feeling, guidance, peace of mind, awakening, enlightenment, etc. By all means take a retreat, go on sabbatical… but also (imo) be careful with interpretations made from all these concepts which only “serve” to conceptualize and suppress emotions, guidance, feeling. Unfortunately it can lead to isolation, difficulty with having relationships, a stunting of otherwise naturally occurring maturing and the like. Misery, essentially. On 8/1/2023 at 7:49 AM, Inno said: But it's funny how @Phil's attitude and spirituality in general is more like "Burn the freaking map, you don't need it", while the general view is "build a comprehensive map". Which way to go?:) 🙂 I’m suggesting investigation of direct experience, not a map to it / concepts about it. In that sense it’s pretty accurate that I’m suggesting burning the map. Direct experience is infinitely abundant. A map to it is actually conceptualizing away from it. Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonduallogic Posted August 1, 2023 Share Posted August 1, 2023 In moments of strong negative emotion, it might be best to just try to relax as much as you can without trying to change your active thoughts. Because if you try to change your thoughts in such moments, it is like you trying to stop a car that comes towards you at a very high speed, as abraham often says. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solereproduction Posted August 1, 2023 Share Posted August 1, 2023 7 hours ago, Inno said: @solereproduction my man, nothing simple about your response, lol 😄 Maps of meaning comes to mind, as a concept by JBP. It's interesting how your response is like a very complex map of the world, explaining direct experience with those concepts. Jordan Peterson's view is that a person develops such a one with his/her life experience and maybe "negative emotion" is just a wrong map, idk. But it's funny how @Phil's attitude and spirituality in general is more like "Burn the freaking map, you don't need it", while the general view is "build a comprehensive map". Which way to go?:) I am going to leave everyone else out of it, but think about this, Realities are think beyond evolving here now and imagine a better tomorrow in time left staying alive here in your own skin. Think outside a box is code speak for ignoring your body is never same total sum twice adapting in the moment here since arriving a fertilized cell replacement for your previous ancestry dating back to inception of the species. Energy flows in series parallel events taking place at the same time different results in separate geographical areas universally present. All this happening with spinning, orbiting, revolving, spiraling, among results proportionately here inorganic perpetual balancing universal positions where in rare locations like this planet positions of reproductions exist in specific order of arrivals and departures specific to each individual gets intellectually defined as random acts of life exceeding their time evolving now in series parallel displacement. It is the mind over matter philosophy used since dawn of civilization creating social realities of ancestries believing anything else is possible. All this chaos is done within the same species of the food chain. Separate ancestries from different geographical areas nothing stays the same at the same time here. Equality described by simple combinations of chromosomes never exceeding space in series parallel time displaced. Equally created because each great great grandchild is born with the opportunity to reach becoming 1 of 16 great great grandparents or not. That is life evolving in real time, plain sight, specifically alive here. Self evident. Forgive those misled since everyone has been misled. stop denying life cannot exceed evolving forward here and living will get better in the civility of everyone understands Common Since Conceived. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inno Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it. @Devin It totally makes sense to experience whatever comes up, the issue, looking in hindsight, is/was that what "came up" made it look like or implied that something had to be done, I could not do it, something was needed, etc. Otherwise it is kinda impossible to experience anything else than what is coming up, doesnt it?@nonduallogic Exactly what I ended up doing. I think that when you go through a certain amount of such intense discordant cycles, at some point this is the only thing to do. Now I try not to entertain any rumination or discordant thoughts, just relax and breathe deeply. 🙏 Quote One way to notice this is to notice that when there are thoughts about suppressing feeling, there is how those thoughts feel, and so feeling isn’t absent. But this is very much the Good news. Feeling is never what thought ‘says’ it is. The word / thought ‘feeling’ just points. The ‘path’ as it were is all about discovering the truth of feeling, as in what is absolute and unchanging under any & all situations & circumstances. @Phil Indeed good news. So thoughts like "I don't know how to express" or "I can't use the emotional scale" are exactly that, thoughts, and are not at all true. As in no thought can ever be true. And those thoughts resonate at a certain emotional frequency, so to speak? A question regarding expression and inspection. It is fairly clear now that discordant thoughts are to be let go. At times a discordant thought passes through and it is clearly seen as a thought, not believed. However from the emotional scale point of view, and for the purpose of clarity and peace, do I have to sort of see what emotion is associated with the particular thought? Also, do you inspect everything expressed, as in written? Quote This has high potential to be taken personally and seem offensive. It’s not at all meant that way. Notice what was suggested is hugging a stranger… but the interpretation which arose is all about a me or myself. That’s kind of indicative of ‘the path’ and what’s being said. It’s quite shocking in the best possible way, just how different life is without interpretation arising / seeing reality as it is. The “problem” is words, even the greatest of words, can never actually convey just how Good, Good is. No offense taken. It is true and I receive the feedback. I don't quite know what to do with it, but anyways:) Btw what do you mean by "indicative of the path"? Quote Old approach: self referential thoughts. Thoughts about a self… the one who decided, the one who’s distressed, the one who can’t think straight, the one who will just breathe, the one who knows it’s not a good time to inquire. New approach: I’m feeling the emotion _________________. A question again: What is the difference between venting and expressing? Is there a difference for example with the following: 1. X was so inconsiderate in Y situation, yada yada. 2. The emotion experienced is anger with relation to the thought "X was so inconsiderate in Y situation, yada yada" Quote Arising from that, is the notion of a should on behalf of the separate self, as if one needs the circumstances to change (going on sabbatical) for there to be feeling, guidance, peace of mind, awakening, enlightenment, etc. By all means take a retreat, go on sabbatical… but also (imo) be careful with interpretations made from all these concepts which only “serve” to conceptualize and suppress emotions, guidance, feeling. Unfortunately it can lead to isolation, difficulty with having relationships, a stunting of otherwise naturally occurring maturing and the like. Misery, essentially. But it kind of seems so, everytime I go somewhere new, either to the mountains, seaside or am just busy doing something, thoughts like this don't appear and I feel better. It is only afterwards, when I have more time, the same ol thoughts and beliefs visit again. But yeah, this last bit resonated, as it was my experience in the past few years. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Inno said: @Devin It totally makes sense to experience whatever comes up, the issue, looking in hindsight, is/was that what "came up" made it look like or implied that something had to be done, I could not do it, something was needed, etc. Otherwise it is kinda impossible to experience anything else than what is coming up, doesnt it? Yes it's impossible to experience anything else, what I meant was to accept experiencing it, don't resist it. Even in what you say here there's resistance to it, you say "I could not do it", just feel and accept the thoughts and emotions about "something needing done", not as in accept them as true, but allow them their presence as thoughts and emotions, "this is felt, this thought is present", embrace them and feel deeper into them with acceptance, again not that they're true but that they're there. Just be with the thought or emotion, let it be there however it is, like letting a kitten play with a ball in front of you, just let it be and be with it. Let it move through your body if it wants to, you may feel different parts of your body tingle or tense up or relax, let it, your breathing may change, let it, you may cry, let it, you may scream or clench your fists, let it, you may curl up in a ball or lay splayed out on your back, let it. Edited August 25, 2023 by Devin Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 50 minutes ago, Inno said: Indeed good news. So thoughts like "I don't know how to express" or "I can't use the emotional scale" are exactly that, thoughts, and are not at all true. As in no thought can ever be true. And those thoughts resonate at a certain emotional frequency, so to speak? Yep. Those thoughts are about a second self you’re never met or experienced. 50 minutes ago, Inno said: A question regarding expression and inspection. It is fairly clear now that discordant thoughts are to be let go. At times a discordant thought passes through and it is clearly seen as a thought, not believed. However from the emotional scale point of view, and for the purpose of clarity and peace, do I have to sort of see what emotion is associated with the particular thought? “I don’t know how to express”. Which emotion is felt? ”I can’t use the emotional scale”. Which emotion is felt. Rumination occurs via thoughts. Grounding occurs via feeling. 50 minutes ago, Inno said: Also, do you inspect everything expressed, as in written? No. There’s no registrar, or investigator (you). Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inno Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share Posted August 27, 2023 @Devin It makes sense. A thought arises that when the turbulence hits, thoughts like "is this the best way to approach this" or "I need to know how to solve/figure this out" appear and are taken as true. I guess what you mean by allowing the thoughts and feelings to arise is to indeed acknowledge the thoughts and recognize them as thoughts, as in not getting tangled up in the story. Quote “I don’t know how to express”. Which emotion is felt? ”I can’t use the emotional scale”. Which emotion is felt. @Phil Hm, I can't pinpoint an exact emotion from the scale per se, however I would say something in the black/grey spectrum. I think helplessness is being experienced in relation to those thoughts. Maybe powerlessness (sort of the same as helplessness, no?), despair, fear. Yet again, what difference does it make to express the thought "despair is felt in relation to the thought X" compared to "thought X"? Seems semantical and a matter of wording, honestly. Quote No. There’s no registrar, or investigator (you). Do you mean that as in registrar or investigator (you) are thoughts? Whether or not thoughts are believed, when writing down, isn't there the experience of writing stuff down? Either beliefs, thoughts, expressed emotion, whatever? So the question was more practical in a sense, or at least was meant as such. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Inno said: @Devin It makes sense. A thought arises that when the turbulence hits, thoughts like "is this the best way to approach this" or "I need to know how to solve/figure this out" appear and are taken as true. I guess what you mean by allowing the thoughts and feelings to arise is to indeed acknowledge the thoughts and recognize them as thoughts, as in not getting tangled up in the story. This might not make sense but I'll throw it out there, there's no such thing as a thought, thought is just a word, these organized lines ("thought"), these words/lines appear either on screen, paper, in your "mind", along with others and feelings and apparent meanings made from other "words" that seem to be associated with them. But actually, it's just a pattern of lines. What does your "thought" look like? How does it act, how would a person like Helen Keller born deaf and blind think? Ultimately, all there is is "qualia"; "sensations", "physical", "visual" "audible", "taste", "smell", "feelings", "emotions", and any of these "real" or "imagined"(thought).... just let them be, don't resist them, I would say enjoy them but that implies you must effort which is untrue, it's more like just allow them, accept, allow them their presence like a little kitten in front of you playing with a tiny yarn ball. Edited August 27, 2023 by Devin Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) I don't mean to do that forever, sitting there letting them be, I just mean when you feel like you need to let them out or whatever. Living life is great too. Actually, when you're enjoying life, you're doing this. I don't mean sitting there doing this, I mean normal life, when you're enjoying it you're just letting it be, like if you enjoy roller coasters or hiking, you're actually in that same state of mind when you're enjoying during normal everyday non meditation life. Like if a kitten was in front of you playing with a small yarn ball, you're just letting it be, "enjoying". Edited August 27, 2023 by Devin Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 32 minutes ago, Inno said: Yet again, what difference does it make to express the thought "despair is felt in relation to the thought X" compared to "thought X"? Seems semantical and a matter of wording, honestly. On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: What is Feeling? How is it different than sensation? When meditating and relaxing the body, at some point the sensation of my legs, arms and "inner body" gets quite intense. However when focusing on my stomach area I often feel sort of like a block there, as in there is some space which I'm not allowed to enter. An Ice block that I can't feel the insides of so to speak. What is emotion in that regard? How to "feel fully" a certain emotion, in order to discharge tension? How to express an emotion? “Semantics” is basically an initial ego defense. A way to not hear the message. Remember this is what you’re asking about. “Feel fully” is acknowledging the emotion felt - beyond (technically prior to) thoughts about (conceptualization). On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: sometimes there is some tension, heaviness that I can't quite put my finger on. Specific thoughts don't come to mind and it seems like it is not just discordant thoughts. More like acumulated stress or emotional baggage. “Emotional baggage”. 😳 LOVE. THE TRUTH. Not to mention… BLISS… which is ‘in the bones’. Accumulation requires time, which is thought. “Accumulated stress or emotional baggage” is a mental / ego ‘write off’. Like “semantics” it’s an ego defense. Conceptualizing feeling vs actual feeling. Difference between asleep in The Matrix & Awake as YOURSELF. It’s “semantical” and subtle and trivial until it’s not. Then it seems impossible to never have noticed or felt the utter obviousness of the ‘situation’. On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: Am I doing anything related to emotional healing when meditating? Or relaxing the body and focusing on breathing is just that and understanding emotion and emotional expression fall into another category? On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: a block there, as in there is some space which I'm not allowed to enter. An Ice block that I can't feel the insides of so to speak. On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: there is some tension, heaviness that I can't quite put my finger on. Specific thoughts don't come to mind and it seems like it is not just discordant thoughts On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: More like acumulated stress or emotional baggage. No ‘beating up on yourself’ 🙂… but notice conceptualizing. Naming, labeling vs acknowledging the emotion felt. Noticing is enough. Not settling for / believing the labels is more than ample to feel the emotions, receive the guidance, and be without the tension, stress, etc. Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 55 minutes ago, Inno said: Also, do you inspect everything expressed, as in written? (No. There’s no registrar, or investigator (you). ) Do you mean that as in registrar or investigator (you) are thoughts? Yes. Also, the ‘you that means’ appears only conversationally. Thoughts about that self arise but there isn’t that self referred to. It’s linguistic only. 55 minutes ago, Inno said: Whether or not thoughts are believed, when writing down, isn't there the experience of writing stuff down? No there is not. 🥰 That wouldn’t actually be an experience, it would be a mental overlay or obscuring, an assumption that there is something which there isn’t. 55 minutes ago, Inno said: Either beliefs, thoughts, expressed emotion, whatever? So the question was more practical in a sense, or at least was meant as such. Practical is another ‘ego’ defense. A way to not fully feel. Keep in mind what you’re asking about is fully feeling. Being, without the stress, tension, etc. And without the dis-ease that most often follows prolonged stress, tension, etc (suppression / not fully feeling). Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inno Posted August 31, 2023 Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 Quote “Semantics” is basically an initial ego defense. A way to not hear the message. Remember this is what you’re asking about. “Feel fully” is acknowledging the emotion felt - beyond (technically prior to) thoughts about (conceptualization). Do you mean "Semantics" as a topic of rationalization in general? Because it was meant as a genuine question as to Is there a difference and what that difference is in both "ways" of expression. I've started spending 10-15 minutes a day with the emotional scale just writing down thoughts and kind of calibrating as to which emotion of the scale is being felt. I was thinking of doing that on the forum so people who have experience with this approach can chime and and give their feedback. Quote No there is not. 🥰 That wouldn’t actually be an experience, it would be a mental overlay or obscuring, an assumption that there is something which there isn’t. Damn, I'm lost, lol. It is tricky, on one hand I see that every explanation of phenomena happening is a thought. On the other hand, sort of within consciousness it seems like stuff is happening. Not separate from consciousness, but still. Quote Practical is another ‘ego’ defense. A way to not fully feel. Keep in mind what you’re asking about is fully feeling. Being, without the stress, tension, etc. And without the dis-ease that most often follows prolonged stress, tension, etc (suppression / not fully feeling). Same question asked about "Semantics" would apply to "practical" basically. With practical I mean whether the practice of expression and release of beliefs is being done right maybe, idk. There are thousands ways to journal I guess. 'There are thousands ways to journal I guess" = Insecurity, Doubt "Maybe I don't know the right way" = Insecurity "Maybe I should write on the forum so someone can correct me and validate the way I do it" = Insecurity ?? Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 On 8/27/2023 at 5:59 AM, Inno said: Yet again, what difference does it make to express the thought "despair is felt in relation to the thought X" compared to "thought X"? Seems semantical and a matter of wording, honestly. 1 hour ago, Inno said: Do you mean "Semantics" as a topic of rationalization in general? Because it was meant as a genuine question as to Is there a difference and what that difference is in both "ways" of expression. I've started spending 10-15 minutes a day with the emotional scale just writing down thoughts and kind of calibrating as to which emotion of the scale is being felt. I was thinking of doing that on the forum so people who have experience with this approach can chime and and give their feedback. The difference is that despair is how a thought feels. Not you. Not what anyone says, does etc. On 7/28/2023 at 3:17 AM, Inno said: and then I don't know what to do in order to move up the scale. Acknowledge and express the next higher emotion. Be sure to finish the scale. 1 hour ago, Inno said: Damn, I'm lost, lol. It is tricky, on one hand I see that every explanation of phenomena happening is a thought. On the other hand, sort of within consciousness it seems like stuff is happening. Not separate from consciousness, but still. Right. That there’s phenomena or consciousness is basically the setup and of course it seems like you’re lost, while that there isn’t is the punchline. If there’s one ‘thing’ you can’t lose, it’s definitely you. Everything else, you’ll lose. But then, that’s the setup again. You never had any ‘thing’ in the first place. Very similar to a dream. Neither things nor you are in a dream. Beliefs or conditioning dictate you experience wakefulness & sleep. Honesty and or inspection of actuality or direct experience dictates this is not the case. 1 hour ago, Inno said: Same question asked about "Semantics" would apply to "practical" basically. With practical I mean whether the practice of expression and release of beliefs is being done right maybe, idk. Right & wrong is an assumption which points to being identified as the knower of right & wrong, and in the dream. The point of expression is alignment. The universe is an expression of you. What’s expressed as in emptied is everything, every belief to the contrary, including that there is a “universe”. 1 hour ago, Inno said: There are thousands ways to journal I guess. Yeah. Cause you’re infinite / there’s no one (separate) expressing. 1 hour ago, Inno said: 'There are thousands ways to journal I guess" = Insecurity, Doubt "Maybe I don't know the right way" = Insecurity "Maybe I should write on the forum so someone can correct me and validate the way I do it" = Insecurity 👍🏼🤍 Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Maynor Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) What is feeling and emotion? This is like the deepest question one could ask. It's similar to the question where do thoughts or insights come from? Do they come from the body of the mind or somewhere else? Or maybe the whole question is framed wrong. Maybe it all comes from nowhere but it has to tie to somewhere too. The pain may or may not have a mind and/or body referent. Take the pain of a breakup. That ain't in your knee. That's a kind of existential anguish. Or how about all the complex "emotions" you experience when you listen to a music album. Are those all one thing? What is that? Where does it come from? We experience these things and came up with names that kinda get at them but we're still sorta confused about what they are or where they come from too. And maybe that's ok. This idea that we think we need to know everything I think is a stance that you don't need to be. You don't need to know why to know what. Edited January 14 by Joseph Maynor Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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