What is Debt?

[Mandy]

Is it possible to create wealth without creating debt? Isn't a dollar credit also a dollar debt? It seems that the wealthiest countries are all in debt to one another, the debt keeps growing, some people believe that this is hugely problematic, but money is a concept and the economy is based on belief and feeling. How does inflation fit into this? 

[Blessed2]

7 minutes ago, Mandy said:

It seems that the wealthiest countries are all in debt to one another,

 

It's actually even more interesting than that because from what I've learned, the national debt isn't really to other nations. Money have really nothing to do per se with nations / governments like USA, Canada or Germany etc. They create the laws regarding money and currency, but really money is created and put into circulation by private / mostly private operators. 🤷

[Mandy]

@Blessed2 If you guys are gonna use the lady shrugging her shoulders do I use the male one? 🤷‍♂️😂

 

Supposedly money is created when banks issue loans. 

 

I've noticed that nothing "calls money through me" like a loan. But I don't want to have to spend the money before I get the money. 😂

 

 

 

 

[Phil]

There is debt which makes money and debt which doesn’t. Debt which doesn’t might look like credit card debt for money spent on unnecessary items or a vehicle loan for an absorbent amount. Debt which does might look like a business loan or mortgage which produces more money per month than the debt payment. If the monthly payment is 2k and the income from the investment / debt is 5k a month, there’s 3k a month that wasn’t there before.

 

With a mortgage, such as a rental house or airbnb/vrbo, the 2k debt is paid by the tenant or guests. You’d have to come up with the out of packet down payment, but you aren’t actually paying the debt in terms of the monthly payment. Instead it’s being paid off while the equity & resale value are both increasing. In this situation one could keep the lifetime income or sell the house at typically (but subject to market) a much higher price than when it was bought and realize (get) the profit without ever having actually paid the debt (unrealized debt). Similarly one could semi-retire from a business and or sell the building and business, such as to retire. 

 

Natural inflation loosely speaking is the increasing population. Economic inflation is a response to natural inflation, an attempt at balancing. Speeding things up and slowing things down. It’s largely relative to other countries and based on shortage and inter species competition thinking. AI will change all of this as people hear what they believe they don’t want to hear, but very much actually do. Inevitably there won’t be a market exchange or money. 

[Mandy]

Absolutely, yet there's no guarantee that your loan will produce the income to pay for itself or that the value will go in any certain direction, the loan is always taken on faith.  

 

How exactly is money created though? Is it by the government as a whole borrowing, printing, and therefore assuming inflation risk or by people borrowing from banks or all of these? Why is the US and other large countries in so much debt, and is that a problem or a sign of misalignment in some way, or is it a sign of wealth or a misunderstanding of the ever expansive, zero sum nature of manifestation? The things Ray Dahlio seems to be saying about how doomed the US is, the same things he believes are worth spreading widely don't seem AT ALL productive to me, but I think that's part of what's sparking the question. Seems more interesting and less disturbing and confusing to get to the root of it, what IS money, what IS debt before we assume it's such a huge issue, OUR issue? I think that inevitably it's going to end to seeing through the numbers, the matrix, rather than an unfavorable snapshot of numbers in the matrix. But I personally do not like having debt, even though I notice that the most financial expansion happens when I do say yes to it. 

[Phil]

Can be more research & calculated risk than faith. In all honesty though I don’t and have never known what faith is. It seems synonymous with believing, fiction, hope, ignore-ance & a God of the gaps.

 

Using an Airbnb as an example, there’s data available online of how much they’re going for, how often they’re rented out, etc. The expenses are pretty predictable. Not literally all expenses but the vast majority. The amount of equity can oscillate but historically / in longer periods of time realestate goes up. The risk of people not wanting to stay in Airbnb’s or rent houses is possible but very minimal relative to other investment vehicles. 

 

 

There was trading pigs for corn etc and money was invented as it’s just more versatile & easier to keep track of. Then someone had the idea to open a place where money was kept safe. Then the idea that the money could be lent out because it mostly just sits there, and interest could be charged. But of course money’s not exceptional in that it isn’t actually created (like ‘every thing’ else). 

 

Most countries have a central bank separate from the government that is responsible for monetary policy & decisions with the primary aim of balance between inflation and deflation. In the US it’s the federal reserve.  But technically the Fed works with the Treasury who actually prints the money. There’s a lot of variables & goals they look at to determine how much and when. 

 

Most money isn’t on paper anymore and is digital / conceptual. Really it was in the first place like every thing else. Most is created by banks as a deposit to the bank out of thin air and lended as if it were in the bank. I would say the chief aim is economic stability. The debt is as made up as the money. Or as real as the money. All depends. In any case, can’t take it with you. 

 

I’m not familiar with Ray Dahlio, but there doesn’t seem to be a shortage of doomsdayers. Ironically; it sells. I think the end will look something like the recognition that living on earth and having money are not / were never inherently interlinked and is not at all the best usage of human resource. 

 

[Mandy]

@Phil Ray Dahlio is like Warren Buffet, a billionaire investor. He claims that the world order is changing and America's dominance is at an end, that's pretty much the gist of it. 

 

Last night my son and husband were joking around with word problems and my son answered what I was asking, when he asked "How can you have a negative fish?" and then I got what I was asking about debt and how it creates money. 

[Blessed2]

On 7/17/2023 at 8:42 PM, Mandy said:

How exactly is money created though?

 

Debt.

 

Basically every time anyone takes a loan from a bank, the bank loans money it doesn't have. Basically all money is promises to pay money.

 

The number on your bank account is how much the bank owes you. And the money the banks has is someone else's debt to the bank. So banks lend debt. Aka money.

 

Money used to be based on stuff like gold, in which certain amount of gold was a certain number of dollars etc. But for centuries now there hasn't been a "base" for money. What money fundamentally is, is a promise to pay money. It's a total mindfuck. And it seem how all this really works isn't even taught properly in schools. Not even in economy studies.

 

"The way money is created is so simple it repels the mind."

 

 

[Mandy]

@Blessed2 Yes! It's exactly the same as "ask you shall receive". Asking for a fish is the same as a negative fish which is the dream of a fish which IS a fish, because there's no actual exclusion. I think I clarified that vibrational offness about debt is vibrational offness. 😂 It's so simple you can't even explain it! 😂

[Blessed2]

11 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Blessed2 Yes! It's exactly the same as "ask you shall receive". Asking for a fish is the same as a negative fish which is the dream of a fish which IS a fish, because there's no actual exclusion. I think I clarified that vibrational offness about debt is vibrational offness. 😂 It's so simple you can't even explain it! 😂

 

I have no idea what you're saying. 😂

 

 

This monetary system isn't really serving the general population.

 

Money is a trick of the bankers to create wealth (mansions, private jets and yachts) without doing literally anything. They're running the economical show, not the government. The government is in debt for the bankers.

 

The way banking works should be illegal. And it is actually illegal in the islamic world, because offering a loan with intrest is prohibited in islamic law, for this very reason. I think it used to be same for christianity but it was allowed in somewhere during the middle ages. You know the story of Jesus 'cleansing the temple'? This is what he did, stopped the bankers from creating wealth from other people.

 

[Mandy]

@Blessed2 Humor me, forget all that minute, and come back to kindergarten recess with me. Can you have a negative apple? 

[Blessed2]

3 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Can you have a negative apple? 

 

A non-existent apple?

[Mandy]

@Blessed2 What IS a non-existent apple made of? 

[Blessed2]

2 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Blessed2 What IS a non-existent apple made of? 

 

If it was made of something, it would be an existent apple.

 

A non-existent apple isn't made.

[Mandy]

@Blessed2 Right now, though what is that non existent apple really? 

[Blessed2]

Just now, Mandy said:

Right now, though what is that non existent apple really? 

 

Conceptualization.

[Mandy]

@Blessed2 What if you remove the connotations that word likely has? What is the apple?  

[Blessed2]

3 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Blessed2 What if you remove the connotations that word likely has? What is the apple?  

 

I don't know, but WOAH it might be an apple. 😂

[Mandy]

@Blessed2 😂It might be a thought, but then again, a thought is a thought. 🤷‍♂️

[Phil]

Debt goes both ways btw.