Pure hell of solipsism. I need help.

[Phil]

@Forza21

Get a dreamboard goin… whatcha think? 

Get your wants, desires, in front of you. See it. Then see it unfolding as reality. 

Blow the doors of this place brother. 

[Kevin]

23 hours ago, Forza21 said:

Do you still struggle? What does make you better?

I still struggle occasionally. Lots of things helped. Talking to Phil helped. Meditation helped. I’ve mostly stopped paying attention to the actualized forum which has helped. I noticed I’d get anxious reading posts there.

 

one insight I had recently is that It’s the thoughts about solipsism that feel bad. I actually have no idea if solipsism is true or not but when I focus on it being true and how lonely it feels I feel terrible. I don’t know it is for others but I realized I was taking that bad feeling as confirmation that it’s true.

 

So basically most helpful things for me were the emotional scale and meditation as well getting some space from the solipsism echo chambers. Once you get some space from focusing on it better perspectives will come

[Forza21]

9 hours ago, Stillness said:

Experiencing the same issue some years ago, it seemed like a very big shock, at the time.  I had a flash of sudden insight, (realization may or may not come like a sudden flash) not through tripping.  I haven't ever tried that.  It was simply having read hundreds of books from various enlightened beings.  I think, jmho, that pursuing a truer alignment with being a being of love since as long as I could remember set me  up with a solid foundation.  I never felt the need to use a substance that would alter brain chemistry to have an experience which then might be faulty due to altering the organ by which these insights would have to be interpreted.  But I learned to be silent from a couple neither of whom had a religious affiliation, who had written a book called "The Journey That Never Was," and taught a course on it. I think it lasted 5 two hour sessions and by then everyone felt they had succeeded and went on their way.  I had not meditated before.  But the wife that taught their course with her husband had experienced instances of communicating with her inner voice regularly, and she had a wonderful gift of transmitting Love through her teaching.  I followed their simple instructions and just did as they said.  As we did the meditation, I felt my heart overflowing with Love and Peace.  I was not a people person for most of my life until then.  But I felt pure inexpressible Love for everyone and everything that made me weep.  That was when I felt real Love for the first time.  And I felt it like a parent's Love for me, someone who cared deeply for me, like the kind of Love a mother would give her treasured child with a hug.

When I had the sudden flash that nothing was real, it was a few years later.  I went into a kind of shock thinking nothing and no one was real.  I spent sometime to get over the shock, and even lost my job at the time mainly because I had no interest in being productive just to entertain myself and impress some imaginary people.  In order to stop obsessing over it, I eventually had to drop that whole line of thinking and go back to my old way thinking.  Only once in a while I still questioned it.  I hadn't forgotten it.  But at least the obsessing stopped, and I still did meditation. 

One day after that I was playing in my backyard with my dog.  We played "fetch" and as I waited for her to fetch and bring me her toy, I looked out into the small woods directly behind our house.  It was a sunny afternoon and as I looked the trees were bathed in afternoon sun and I studied the leaves and the veins flowing with Life through the almost transparent green and they lit up like they had a bright aura all around them.  Then I looked at the trunks and the bark flowing with Life traveling up and down through them, and I saw Life in them and the rocks as well.  They too seemed alive and even intelligent.  Everywhere I looked there was Life throbbing right through every object.  And in a moment I knew that the Life I saw was me.  The people walking past on the sidewalk were me.  I was Life and they were all, all things, were me.  It made me almost giddy with happiness and Love for them all.  We were all one.  Everything and I were connected and completely one, unified and blessed with Life that flowed through everything and loved everything.  That was the moment when I no longer felt like an isolated being and no longer felt lost and lonely.  That moment was a gift to me.  Of course my dog barked and broke the spell, but that happiness stayed with me ever since.  This is a true story and I hope perhaps it helps you to see what you're not seeing when you obsess on solipsism.

And just one small observation here:  I don't think Leo's teaching is from the point of view of  transmitting Love.  He seems to have little empathy and teaches the mechanics from a very analytical viewpoint.  When I go to his forum, if I go there, I usually feel negative energy and a bit of depression afterward.  I rarely feel inspired or uplifted and often feel that Leo has not yet experienced the emotion of deep unconditional Love.  Some may connect with the analytical side more.  I'm analytical myself and he makes good arguments for some things, but I don't feel it at my heart level.  As I said, just my observation.

 

Thank you for sharing this. ❤️ I'll keep going until i realize the love, and the aliveness/ones.

yes, for me, it's too, obsessive thinking. For example, when i read the news i wonder "is it really happening?"  It's pain the ass, but i guess there's no other way, then go through this, and eventually it will be okay. I trust in God.

if it comes to Leo, i wrote a post about my thoughts about him. I agree 100%.

[Forza21]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

@Forza21

Get a dreamboard goin… whatcha think? 

Get your wants, desires, in front of you. See it. Then see it unfolding as reality. 

Blow the doors of this place brother. 

I'll do it! ❤️❤️ thank you Phil ❤️ 

[Forza21]

51 minutes ago, Kevin said:

I still struggle occasionally. Lots of things helped. Talking to Phil helped. Meditation helped. I’ve mostly stopped paying attention to the actualized forum which has helped. I noticed I’d get anxious reading posts there.

 

one insight I had recently is that It’s the thoughts about solipsism that feel bad. I actually have no idea if solipsism is true or not but when I focus on it being true and how lonely it feels I feel terrible. I don’t know it is for others but I realized I was taking that bad feeling as confirmation that it’s true.

 

So basically most helpful things for me were the emotional scale and meditation as well getting some space from the solipsism echo chambers. Once you get some space from focusing on it better perspectives will come

hahaha, yes.

My thoughts were exactly the same. The worse i felt, the more struggle i had. 

"all people are imaginary, they don't exist"

<suffer>
<suffer>
<suffer>
"i suffer, but what if it's true? What if it's truth avoidance to think otherwise?"
<suffer>
<suffer>

Screw this. The way i feel means how connected to the source i'm.

If I'm God, i would want all the best for myself. Therefore, the truth can't be bad, right? If it hurts, it can't be truth?:)

[Joseph Maynor]

@Forza21 From my perspective solipsism might be a useful tool on the spiritual enlightenment path but shouldn't really be considered a truth.  It's a rabbit-hole to go down.  I never agreed with Leo Gura's need to have the "one right answer" framed in concepts in this subject area.  I don't want to sound cliché, but when your cup is full you can't learn anymore.  This is why Buddhists talk about keeping your cup empty and maintaining a beginner's mind.  Everything I've done in spiritual enlightenment has been the inverse of knowing.  It's just not philosophy, and this is coming from someone (myself) who appreciates philosophy a lot.  Awakening is a very paradoxical thing because the more you grasp for it to try to possess it, the more it slips away.   Emerald from the Diamond Net had the perfect example: It's like one of those finger cuffs that when you try to pull your finger out fast you can't, but when you pull your finger out slowly you can.  This is also why you shouldn't try to force understanding/force yourself as a teacher/force your own growth.  This is only going to be you trying to dominate something that doesn't work like that, which will set you further and further away from it.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Forza21]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Forza21 From my perspective solipsism might be a useful tool on the spiritual enlightenment path but shouldn't really be considered a truth.  It's a rabbit-hole to go down.  I never agreed with Leo Gura's need to have the "one right answer" framed in concepts in this subject area.  I don't want to sound cliché, but when your cup is full you can't learn anymore.  This is why Buddhists talk about keeping your cup empty and maintaining a beginner's mind.  Everything I've done in spiritual enlightenment has been the inverse of knowing.  It's just not philosophy, and this is coming from someone (myself) who appreciates philosophy a lot.

Thank you!
Did you go through solipsism on your way? How did it help you, and how did you see it's falsehood?  I would love to hear that from the perspective of someone who's been there.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Forza21 said:

Thank you!
Did you go through solipsism on your way? How did it help you, and how did you see it's falsehood?  I would love to hear that from the perspective of someone who's been there.

The word falsehood is a philosophical word as is truth.  One of the things I disagree with Leo Gura is his need to reduce spiritual enlightenment to philosophy.  Out of respect for Phil I want to keep my theories to myself, but I'll say this, I do think it's useful to question the duality between mind and body, self and other on the path.  But all the work I've done where I've gotten results from spiritual enlightenment work has been orthogonal to belief and philosophy.  Solipsism never resonated with me as a truth because it's a stance, a philosophy, a belief -- and you can take the opposite belief too -- we can play with beliefs all day long, that doesn't tell me who or what I am pre-or-post belief.

[Forza21]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

The word falsehood is a philosophical word as is truth.  One of the things I disagree with Leo Gura is his need to reduce spiritual enlightenment to philosophy.  Out of respect for Phil I want to keep my theories to myself, but I'll say this, I do think it's useful to question the duality between mind and body, self and other on the path.  But all the work I've done where I've gotten results from spiritual enlightenment work has been orthogonal to belief and philosophy.  Solipsism never resonated with me as a truth because it's a stance, a philosophy, a belief -- and you can take the opposite belief too -- we can play with beliefs all day long, that doesn't tell me who or what I am pre-or-post belief.

 Thank you. Noted that. Solipsism should be recognized as belief, not truth.  Phil also said this, but it takes time for it to "click' ❤️

[Indisguise]

@Forza21 Here's a little thought experiment for you:

Imagine that you could verify if others have an experience of their own; you could "swap" POVs and see the world through their eyes.

But to be able to swap with them, you would have to pay a price:

You would have to completely forget who you, Forza, are.

In other words, you couldn't swap with them and still know "I am Forza", with all your memories etc.

You would have to 100% become them.

Now here's the question:

When you are them, who are you?

[Forza21]

Just now, Indisguise said:

@Forza21 Here's a little thought experiment for you:

Imagine that you could verify if others have an experience of their own; you could "swap" POVs and see the world through their eyes.

But to be able to swap with them, you would have to pay a price:

You would have to completely forget who you, Forza, are.

In other words, you couldn't swap with them and still know "I am Forza", with all your memories etc.

You would have to 100% become them.

Now here's the question:

Who would you be? 

I would become them. And i would see "Forza" and wonder if he has experience of his own. 😉

is that what you meant by this thought experiement? 😄

[Indisguise]

Nope😄 that's not what I meant, I mean something much more spooky😉

Yes, when you are them, you are them.

But who are you? When you are them? Who is looking through their eyes? Through your eyes?

[Indisguise]

PS: it's ridiculously simple. 

What's the simplest answer you could possibly give me to the question "who are you?"

Who are you?

[Forza21]

Just now, Indisguise said:

Nope😄 that's not what I meant, I mean something much more spooky😉

Yes, when you are them, you are them.

But who are you? When you are them? Who is looking through their eyes? 

Pure consciousness? 😁

[Indisguise]

1 minute ago, Forza21 said:

Pure consciousness? 😁

No!!! Way too complicated!!

Who are you??

[Forza21]

1 minute ago, Indisguise said:

No!!! Way too complicated!!

Who are you??

I'm me, i'm myself 😄 ?

Everyone call themselves "I". 
 

[Indisguise]

YES! You're "I"all the time. You're always "I". It doesn't matter who you are. Don't you see that this "I" is the same? There are no two "I". There are no others, dude. 

Now, once you realize that this "I" isn't inside your body, but that your body is inside you, and that the same applies to literally everything and everyone, then there's no more Solipsism.

The question of "do they have their own internal world" becomes meaningless because "I" is not something inside the body, not something inside "you" (ego). 

[Indisguise]

You can only be you, ever.

Imagine you could be two people at the same time. Still you.

 

[Orb]

8 minutes ago, Indisguise said:

YES! You're "I"all the time. You're always "I". It doesn't matter who you are. Don't you see that this "I" is the same? There are no two "I". There are no others, dude. 

Now, once you realize that this "I" isn't inside your body, but that your body is inside you, and that the same applies to literally everything and everyone, then there's no more Solipsism.

The question of "do they have their own internal world" becomes meaningless because "I" is not something inside the body, not something inside "you" (ego). 

@Indisguise @Forza21

I wanted to add to this by suggesting shifting the inquiry to what is there not who.

The whole solipsism mess starts with the assumption that there must be a who.

But what is it that is right now? 🤔

Although, in self inquiry the who am I question is certainly helpful, but I thought an alternative approach can also help.

[Nowt]

@Forza21  I'd really recommend the following for you. If you can get the audiobook rather than the paperback I think it would be much more helpful. Audible let you download a book for free if you just try it out. I found it so insightful.

https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Consciousness-Is-All-Audiobook/B00MNMX0O6