Is there reincarnation?

[Aware Wolf]

 'I die and I do not die' -- this is my vision of self in death and beyond. I have written about this in many places and have given one chapter on this in the book, Zen is Eternal Life. Some zen masters will hold that in zen there is no death; this is supposed to be known simply in consciousness as presence; or, that in zen vision your life is eternal, death is only an illusion. Some will hold life and death are nondual, you die every minute and come back to life every minute. Hence, death is death, and life is life. Some will accept rebirth, that after death you take birth into many lives endlessly. Some will hold that in death your self and energy are transformed into the many living things like plants or animals, or even clouds and rains and so on. Some will aver that there is no self literally, the self is only an illusion. And so on and on. 

   For me, learn to live well, learn to love and care; learn to accept joys and sufferings, ups and downs. As regard what happens after one's physical death, we do not know, it is a mystery. But it is no nihilism, no eternalism. You live only once; cherish this one life and live this one life in faith and hope; in freedom, joy, and caring. And learn to love the living and also the earth. Your life is enveloped in the mystery. Not only in death you enter into the mystery, your whole life is lived in the invisible presence of the mystery. We do not know where we come from, we do not know where we go. The entire universe is mystery; even matter is mystery, life is mystery, consciousness is above all a great mystery. Our life is shrouded in mystery; and paradoxically we are the mystery, the mystery of Emptiness. Emptiness that is Mystery, Mystery that is graciousness. 

   -- Father Ama Samy. Koan seminar handout from future book 2019. 

 

I liked this from the series Midnight Mass

 

[Phil]

🙂

30 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

i just can't get my head around, what happens when this "finite lens" dies, other "lens stays" you merge into infite love, but what about "other lense" when it's all one?

If love is said to be infinite, and it is said there is a you which merges into infinite love, then infinite love is a secondary belief. The primary belief would be that I am the separate thing or self, which in a future will or could merge into, infinite love.

 

Was a finite lens born?

Are there other lenses?

Does a lens constitute a you, or separation?

What is “it”, if “it” is all one?

Doesn’t one imply no it?

[Forza21]

20 minutes ago, Phil said:

🙂

If love is said to be infinite, and it is said there is a you which merges into infinite love, then infinite love is a secondary belief. The primary belief would be that I am the separate thing or self, which in a future will or could merge into, infinite love.

 

 

Right, duality. So i am infinite love right now, and after so-called "death" it's still the same... infinite love. So no difference between this "state" if you will, and 'death" - still love, still water, still ocean?
 

 

20 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Was a finite lens born?

 

There's no actuallity of being born or death.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Are there other lenses?

 

This is tricky,  can you elaborate or take some different metaphor? Because i would say yes, there might be infinite numbers of lenses?  I imagine it as an ocean observing itself from infinite perspectives? If i said "no" would it imply solipsism?  ( it's my second name on this forum, lol xD solipsism guy.)

 

20 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Does a lens constitute a you, or separation?

 

No, there's no separation, and i can't find this "me".  Actually i can't find a "knower" , there's no separation of what i see and what's being seen/heard/felt etc.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

What is “it”, if “it” is all one?

Doesn’t one imply no it?

Yes, it's one, so "it" or "that" suggest duality.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Forza21

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

Right, duality. So i am infinite love right now, and after so-called "death" it's still the same... infinite love. So no difference between this "state" if you will, and 'death" - still love, still water, still ocean?
 

With the term so called and the quotations which denote not actually, nothing is being asked & nothing is being asked about, and the answer is already present in & as the question. 

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

This is tricky,  can you elaborate or take some different metaphor? Because i would say yes, there might be infinite numbers of lenses?  I imagine it as an ocean observing itself from infinite perspectives?

Light shines through a prism resulting in a rainbow of color. Red asks blue if there is one prism, one light, or many prisms and or many lights. What does blue reply?

2 hours ago, Forza21 said:

 

If i said "no" would it imply solipsism?  ( it's my second name on this forum, lol xD solipsism guy.)

 

Maybe we can ‘put this to bed’. Maybe not. 

 

Solipsism is an ism, like Mormonism or Catholicism are ism’s. Like any other belief or belief system, solipsism is the activity of thought.

A Mormon saying Mormonism is the truth or a Catholic saying Catholicism is the truth, is a pointer to, an ism.

What isn’t recognized is the ism is the activity of thought, or, a belief(s). 

 

You are of course free to agree or not agree, but when I am using the word spirituality, it is not to uphold beliefs or suggest any belief is the truth, or any new belief or pointer is the truth… but rather the very inspection of beliefs, and therein the cessation of suffering, and in kind of the activity of thought.  

 

As far as I can see, you’re definitely in the clear on being ‘solipsism guy’. At best (or worst) you are or are playing the role of a solipsist, only in the same sense a Mormonist is or is playing the role of spreading the message of Mormonism, or a Catholic is spreading the message of Catholicism. 

[Forza21]

23 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Light shines through a prism resulting in a rainbow of color. Red asks blue if there is one prism, one light, or many prisms and or many lights. What does blue reply?

Maybe we can ‘put this to bed’. Maybe not. 

 

 Great analogy.
if blue is ignorant, it will replay " of course there are many".

if blue is enlightened, it will replay " no, it's all one."

so basically, after  death "blue"  is "gone", ( from red perspective) but it was never "separated" color, it was always the light 🙂 And for "blue" it's obvious than. 

The analogy with ocean which can observe itself from infinite perspectives might be valid to?

23 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

 

Solipsism is an ism, like Mormonism or Catholicism are ism’s. Like any other belief or belief system, solipsism is the activity of thought.

A Mormon saying Mormonism is the truth or a Catholic saying Catholicism is the truth, is a pointer to, an ism.

What isn’t recognized is the ism is the activity of thought, or, a belief(s). 

 

You are of course free to agree or not agree, but when I am using the word spirituality, it is not to uphold beliefs or suggest any belief is the truth, or any new belief or pointer is the truth… but rather the very inspection of beliefs, and therein the cessation of suffering, and in kind of the activity of thought.  

 

As far as I can see, you’re definitely in the clear on being ‘solipsism guy’. 

 

 haha trust me, i'm getting over this, it's infinitely better than it was, i simply notice that it feels discordant/let go. + some glimpses of "no-self"  are my guidance. 🙂 of course it's still so tempting for mind to get answers...

Thank you!

Edited April 20, 2022 by Forza21

[Annie]

Yes, there is - but that insight comes from my own personal journey.  Check out the books Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts, The Psychic Being by Sri Aurobindo and the Tibetan Book of the Dead along with the Law of One by Ra. 

 

Books are friends, forums are frenemies, they won't give you the education you need to come to your own conclusion.  We can offer little bits of info here and there from our own perspective.

Read... read a lot.  On spirituality.  As much as you can.  Meditate.  Be present and learn from the present moment.  Journal.  A lot.  This helps you get acquainted with your true self.

Don't even listen to me.  No one here is right... but YOU.  Only your higher self, your true self, awareness God, whatever... can tell you what the truth is.

 

We are all FOOLS here.  YOU know the truth.
So find out if you believe or don't believe.  Even if I say it is true, don't trust it - just find what insights you can, and trust yourself.

 

[Phil]

22 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

if blue is ignorant, it will replay " of course there are many".

if blue is enlightened, it will replay " no, it's all one."

Yes but no. For blue to be ignorant and or enlightened, blue must be an it. 

22 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

The analogy with ocean which can observe itself from infinite perspectives might be valid to?

No. 

[Forza21]

36 minutes ago, Phil said:

Yes but no. For blue to be ignorant and or enlightened, blue must be an it. 

No. 

Why not ? I dont get it.  😂

And if i say that infinite mind can dream all The finite minds/perspective at once? Will it be closer to truth?

 

 

Is it even possible to get what you’re saying without realization? Only on intelectual level?😁  

Edited April 20, 2022 by Forza21

[Lotus]

3 hours ago, Forza21 said:

If i said "no" would it imply solipsism?

This might serve as a helpful visual aid for understanding pointers, such as solipsism, koans, emotional scales, and so on.

If done right, the pointer eliminates itself. It's thought. And actuality is beautiful.

[Phil]

57 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

Why not ? I dont get it.  😂

 

Is it even possible to get what you’re saying without realization? Only on intelectual level?😁  

‘Being the observer’, ‘being in observer only mode’, aka ‘the witness’ or ‘witnessing mode’ is a great practice for the experience of the vantage point of what one is not doing; reacting.  Helpful for seeing through ‘the matrix’, and dispelling the belief in causation.  Including the caveat of no facial expressions whatsoever really solidifies the practice. People usually report that much more than what was normally seen or observed was seen. It also tends to heighten or bring about a fullness in perception as in seeing, hearing, tasting and smelling. 

 

But observer and witness can imply a duality of observed and or witnessed, as in ‘the ocean which can observe itself from infinite perspectives’. Like the observer mode can be a good practice, infinite being observing itself from infinite perspectives can be a good contemplation. But this too ‘can go’ / be seen through. 

 

This is pointed to with phrases like the tongue can not taste the tongue, or the tip of your right hand index finger can not point to the tip of your right hand index finger, or your lips can’t kiss your lips. If the belief in time is added as a constraint upon infinite being, there is likewise the theoretical conceptualization of ‘the liver of lives’ in similar dualistic fashion; life or lives, & liver, experiencer, observer or witness of. 

 

These things said can be grasped intellectually, and that can be clarifying and that can be one of countless intellectual traps as ‘the knower’ of ‘the known’. Cessation is not inclusive of any of this, and my two cents would be to take things said here as ‘what belief(s) does this help dispel’, as opposed to ‘now I know this’. Also, this is probably overly cautious on my part. 

 

Could also look at a mirror, and notice you’re not actually ‘in’ the mirror. That might be obvious or readily recognized. “I’m not in it, I’m looking at it”. 

Then notice you’re not seeing yourself in the mirror either. The thought might arise, “right, obviously that’s a reflection”. 

What’s being said here however, is that is not a reflection. 

That might not be as readily recognized. 

 

@MazE

Great thread & sorry if this is a hijacking. 😬

[Annie]

It is there... don't listen to these people they have not almost died.

Souls exist.  Reincarnation is true.  Look for it yourself, don't ask...

[Forza21]

8 hours ago, Phil said:

‘Being the observer’, ‘being in observer only mode’, aka ‘the witness’ or ‘witnessing mode’ is a great practice for the experience of the vantage point of what one is not doing; reacting.  Helpful for seeing through ‘the matrix’, and dispelling the belief in causation.  Including the caveat of no facial expressions whatsoever really solidifies the practice. People usually report that much more than what was normally seen or observed was seen. It also tends to heighten or bring about a fullness in perception as in seeing, hearing, tasting and smelling. 

 

 it's not easy to grasp it after years cultivating "dualistic" paradigms, but i do my best! So basically  "Observe the observer" as you see that even that can be let go off. This requires years of meditation practice, i assume, and it's kinda "high league" .🙂 

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

 

 

Could also look at a mirror, and notice you’re not actually ‘in’ the mirror. That might be obvious or readily recognized. “I’m not in it, I’m looking at it”. 

Then notice you’re not seeing yourself in the mirror either. The thought might arise, “right, obviously that’s a reflection”. 

What’s being said here however, is that is not a reflection. 

That might not be as readily recognized. 

 

 

1) Here mirror exercice was disscusted for those who are intrested. I assume you're suggesting the same thing ? :
 

2) When asking "Are there other lenses?" are you implying anything different from in your video "Actuality Of Being"? Have anything changed since the recording? 

"there are no restrictions or limitation as how many worlds or finite minds which can appear in the spheres"

is there any diffrenece?

 

3 hours ago, Annie said:

It is there... don't listen to these people they have not almost died.

Souls exist.  Reincarnation is true.  Look for it yourself, don't ask...

I assume there is something like "subtle body" and it all belongs to "person".  When you no longer think you are this "separated person" i think you might look different on this topic.  I'm open to anything, since i don't know any different i just try to understand it. As i can.
 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Forza21

[Annie]

17 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

 it's not easy to grasp it after years cultivating "dualistic" paradigms, but i do my best! So basically  "Observe the observer" as you see that even that can be let go off. This requires years of meditation practice, i assume, and it's kinda "high league" .🙂 

 

1) Here mirror exercice was disscusted for those who are intrested. I assume you're suggesting the same thing ? :
 

2) When asking "Are there other lenses?" are you implying anything different from in your video "Actuality Of Being"? Have anything changed since the recording? 

"there are no restrictions or limitation as how many worlds or finite minds which can appear in the spheres"

is there any diffrenece?

 

I assume there is something like "subtle body" and it all belongs to "person".  When you no longer think you are this "separated person" i think you might look different on this topic.  I'm open to anything, since i don't know any different i just try to understand it. As i can.
 

I don't deal with people telling me what to do in my spiritual path, sorry, you aren't my authority and never will be.

[Indisguise]

42 minutes ago, Annie said:

I don't deal with people telling me what to do in my spiritual path, sorry, you aren't my authority and never will be.

Who told you what to do?...

[Blessed2]

55 minutes ago, Annie said:

I don't deal with people telling me what to do in my spiritual path, sorry, you aren't my authority and never will be.

 

You literally just said this:

 

4 hours ago, Annie said:

don't listen to these people

 

Look for it yourself, don't ask...

 

[Annie]

Is there a problem with it - I said the same thing?

This place is like actualized... same constant rhetoric.

 

[Indisguise]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

I don't deal with people telling me what to do in my spiritual path, sorry, you aren't my authority and never will be.

This just sounded like a defensive and slightly cynical comment, even though before you literally told someone what to do on their spiritual path:

 

5 hours ago, Annie said:

It is there... don't listen to these people they have not almost died.

 

[Forza21]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

Is there a problem with it - I said the same thing?

This place is like actualized... same constant rhetoric.

 

I really dont think its The same rhetroic at all. What Phil or anybody here says is totally diffrent. And nobody is forcing you, i know nothing….

Edited April 21, 2022 by Forza21

[Phil]

5 hours ago, Forza21 said:

it's not easy to grasp it after years cultivating "dualistic" paradigms, but i do my best! So basically  "Observe the observer" as you see that even that can be let go off. This requires years of meditation practice, i assume, and it's kinda "high league" .🙂 

‘Bring it down to earth’ so to speak. More like relax and just watch, observe. Maybe five minutes. 

 

5 hours ago, Forza21 said:

1) Here mirror exercice was disscusted for those who are intrested. I assume you're suggesting the same thing ? :

Just ‘if interested’ really. 

5 hours ago, Forza21 said:

2) When asking "Are there other lenses?" are you implying anything different from in your video "Actuality Of Being"? Have anything changed since the recording? 

No. Same. 

5 hours ago, Forza21 said:

"there are no restrictions or limitation as how many worlds or finite minds which can appear in the spheres"

is there any diffrenece?

All differences are really the thoughts that there are differences. Also, like something as simple a strawberry shake… it’s only a thought without the direct experience. 

[MazE]

@Phil i write songs. I don't write songs. Songs write themselves. Emotions are what hook the listener. I didn't ask a question i started writing a song in the form of a forum question. Then the song started writing itself. I have a linux soul and most people have windows 95 or something. Then the hardware will rust but i will get installed as the next version of the operating system in a custom made fancy pc with rgb lights. 

My life might suck right now but i'm a fly that enjoys swimming in the toilet water.

So nice. Why should i take it personal? 

I should take it personal though. It's not funny. I'm not aligned. I self destruct slowly. I chain smoke. I will win you know. 

Here, i derailed it a bit more. Just a fly making noice when it's time to sleep.