Struggling to Meditate

[Phil]

6 hours ago, Celestial said:

I feel like I can understand this on a conceptual level but it's not a lived understanding. 

It might be helpful to check direct experience. To ‘put it to the challenge’ of verification as it were. 

It’s easiest (imo) to attempt to point.

Try to physical speaking point to the I spoken of. Point to the I which feels. 

The I which can understand. 

The ‘it’ which is ‘not a lived understanding’. 

 

The ‘aim’ is awareness that these are thoughts arising, and meditation is the returning of attention to feeling (breathing in the stomach or whatever method). 

 

I would allow the sadness. So much so, that a deep, pungent heartbreaking sorrow is allowed. 

[Celestial]

54 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

One thing that really helps for me is doing it first thing in the morning. Before you check your phone or start to plan the day in thoughts. 
If i sit to meditate mid-day while “the day” has a lot of momentum, its very difficult to settle thoughts. Doing it First thing in the morning gives a lot of momentum, and dont worry if you have a lot of thought acticty in the first 10 min, that usually settles after. 

I'm in complete agreement with this. I start work at 7am and most times I've woken up early to sit, I would just get extremely tired and eventually just give in and go back to sleep. But I definitely notice a difference meditating in the morning as opposed to meditating after work.

[Celestial]

14 minutes ago, Phil said:

It might be helpful to check direct experience. To ‘put it to the challenge’ of verification as it were. 

It’s easiest (imo) to attempt to point.

Try to physical speaking point to the I spoken of. Point to the I which feels. 

The I which can understand. 

The ‘it’ which is ‘not a lived understanding’. 

I can't point to any location and honestly say that there's an "I" there.     

But it felt like I undertook the exercise. Bit of frustration.

25 minutes ago, Phil said:

I would allow the sadness. So much so, that a deep, pungent heartbreaking sorrow is allowed. 

That kinda hit me in the feels. 

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, Celestial said:

I can't point to any location and honestly say that there's an "I" there.     

But it felt like I undertook the exercise. Bit of frustration.

Awareness can’t point to an I.

If there is frustration, there is a discordant thought.

If you care to share, what is the discordant thought?

 

[Celestial]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

If you care to share, what is the discordant thought?

I'm not certain what I really am. 

I don't understand how it fully feels like there's a me, but when I attempt to point to that me, I'm not sure that anything I point to is me.

[Phil]

@Celestial

This aspect is simpler than you might think. Just start at the beginning of this thread and read your comments out loud. Every time you come across “I know”, instead, say aloud / replace it with “I believe”. 

 

Then it will likely naturally unfold, or be recognized, why doubt, frustration and pessimism are felt. 

[Celestial]

22 hours ago, Phil said:

@Celestial

This aspect is simpler than you might think. Just start at the beginning of this thread and read your comments out loud. Every time you come across “I know”, instead, say aloud / replace it with “I believe”. 

 

Then it will likely naturally unfold, or be recognized, why doubt, frustration and pessimism are felt. 

I'm still not entirely sure why those emotions came up. 

 

Is it simply because beliefs don't resonate? I might be way off idk.

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Celestial

[Phil]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:01 AM, Celestial said:

That kinda hit me in the feels. 

First and foremost that’s where it’s at so to speak. Sink into that. The ‘feeling’ of being ‘me’… allowing thoughts about, to come & go freely. Allow expectations, ideas, etc to happen naturally and fizzle out naturally… returning attention to feeling (feeling breathing in the stomach, relaxing, enjoying).

 

With respect to meditation & feeling btw, anything Phil’s saying really is ‘just more thoughts’.

 

What’s appearing as thoughts is paramount; not any apparent thoughts. It’s a bit like looking into the nature of floating balloons, by allowing all the balloons to float away, so only the helium remains. What’s left is that which was being balloons, and not per se in balloons, or what any of the balloons seemed to be about. Balloons can’t ‘do’ helium. That’d just be more balloony.  

 

3 hours ago, Celestial said:

I'm still not entirely sure why those emotions came up. 

 

Is it simply because beliefs don't resonate? I might be way off idk.

 

Yes basically. One pointing is that it’s because the true nature is unthinkably sensitive. There are subtle identity & duality implications of some thoughts which is felt, and the discord felt may be noticed but aspects of thoughts feeling off might not yet be nocitced. That’s fine and doesn’t matter and thus the point of meditation, as an allowing of thoughts to float away. There might be an inclination to ascertain that ‘why’ from the balloons, but the why is the helium. Clarity is helium in this analogy. A thought about clarity tastes about as good as a thought about a milkshake. 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 8:43 PM, Celestial said:

I know that meditation is the way. I know I'll inevitably feel better if I meditate everyday.

Meditation is the way, but not in a getting from here to there in time & space manor, nor in an accomplishing or obtaining manor. Meditation is sometimes referred to as the ‘way-less way’. 

 

Feel the subtle discord & alignment between ‘I’ll feel better in the future if I do x’, and, ‘feeling is present / presence, and is uncovered by allowing the activity of thought to settle, to come to rest’. The first thought implies an another self in time which is doing & will feel better in another time & place… the second thought doesn’t. The second thought is of allowing. Stated in an extreme way to draw out the difference, the first thought is of not me & manipulation (of some other thing, by a separate thing) and the second thought is of allowing. 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 8:43 PM, Celestial said:

Basically, I'm struggling with actually sitting down and meditating everyday. Not too sure why, but it doesn't feel good and it feels like this resistance that needs to be washed away. 

Needs to vs is, via meditation, and expression of whatever arises with any inclination to be expressed. 

[Blessed2]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:43 AM, Celestial said:

Basically, I'm struggling with actually sitting down and meditating everyday. Not too sure why, but it doesn't feel good and it feels like this resistance that needs to be washed away. 

 

Then why try to meditate every day if there is resistance? Let the resistance be and don't meditate if it doesn't feel good.

 

If you don't feel like it, then don't do it.

 

If you feel like it, then do it.

 

 

The resistance/suffering is probably of to the ideas like:

 

- You need to meditate to feel better in the future

 

- You need to meditate to fix something about yourself

 

- You should be able to meditate for long periods of time

 

- You should meditate regularly to be serious enough about spirituality

 

- If you don't meditate regularly, you won't become happy and enlightened

 

etc.

 

I'd check what possible discordant beliefs there are in regard to meditation, bring them to light and inspect.

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Blessed2

[Celestial]

@Phil That helps to clarify things for me, thank you.

On 4/14/2023 at 10:16 PM, Phil said:

allowing thoughts about, to come & go freely. Allow expectations, ideas, etc to happen naturally and fizzle out naturally… returning attention to feeling (feeling breathing in the stomach, relaxing, enjoying).

This is pretty much how I've been meditating the past few days and it feels more natural and light to me than following a formulaic technique. Especially framing meditation as relaxation and an enjoyment as opposed to monitoring experience.

 

Enjoyed the Ballooon analogy btw.

 

 

[Celestial]

@Blessed2 Even with the resistance, I still desire to meditate. Honestly probably because I assumed meditation was EXTREMELY important so I made it out to be this military sort of training that needs to get done everyday. 

21 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

The resistance/suffering is probably of to the ideas like:

 

- You need to meditate to feel better in the future

 

- You need to meditate to fix something about yourself

 

- You should be able to meditate for long periods of time

 

- You should meditate regularly to be serious enough about spirituality

 

- If you don't meditate regularly, you won't become happy and enlightened

Pretty sure I've thought all of these.

21 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

I'd check what possible discordant beliefs there are in regard to meditation, bring them to light and inspect.

I think that'd be fruitful for me. 

Thank you

[Celestial]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:37 PM, Mandy said:

You also can use expressive journaling, and a lot of stuff that comes up in meditation has an outlet and is seen that way, when thoughts are invited to flow and be seen, and you can get let loose and go crazy. If meditation seems like a forced repression of that, it's a desire coming up to express, make time for expression. 

@Mandy I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I haven't done much expression. But when I do it feels good. Do you see meditation and expression as symbiotic? 

[almond]

can i just say that the other day I suddenly 'felt' myself  thinking. I laughed because upstairs (the mind) i was thinking and thinking, and when I became aware this it went away. It's like the truth unfolded. For meditation someone once recommended to imagine holding your head in your hand (detachment of thought).. loved that, though pretty sure meditating is possible in so many ways.

[almond]

On 4/14/2023 at 1:16 PM, Phil said:

 

Meditation is the way, but not in a getting from here to there in time & space manor, nor in an accomplishing or obtaining manor. Meditation is sometimes referred to as the ‘way-less way’. 

 

 

Feel the subtle discord & alignment between ‘I’ll feel better in the future if I do x’, and, ‘feeling is present / presence, and is uncovered by allowing the activity of thought to settle, to come to rest’. The first thought implies an another self in time which is doing & will feel better in another time & place… the second thought doesn’t. The second thought is of allowing. Stated in an extreme way to draw out the difference, the first thought is of not me & manipulation (of some other thing, by a separate thing) and the second thought is of allowing. 

 

Needs to vs is, via meditation, and expression of whatever arises with any inclination to be expressed. 

 

insightful

[Mandy]

8 hours ago, Celestial said:

@Mandy I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I haven't done much expression. But when I do it feels good. Do you see meditation and expression as symbiotic? 

Very much so. There's no "either/or" things in actuality. 

[Celestial]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:34 PM, Phil said:

I would allow the sadness. So much so, that a deep, pungent heartbreaking sorrow is allowed. 

I'm interested in why?

 

Also, why does crying feel so good?

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Celestial said:

I'm interested in why?

Love. 

2 hours ago, Celestial said:

 

Also, why does crying feel so good?

Love. 

[Celestial]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:31 PM, Phil said:

Love. 

Love. 

Still not sure what Love is. 

Is it because crying is non-resistance?

[Phil]

5 hours ago, Celestial said:

Still not sure what Love is. 

Meditation allows the activity of thought (about love being something other than love) to settle. 

5 hours ago, Celestial said:

Is it because crying is non-resistance?

Causation is actually the activity of thought. 

[Celestial]

@Phil 

I'm bamboozled.