Fear of extreme suffering

[spiritual dreams]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

What symbols are used to communicate about acceptance?

words and concepts. where is this going?

[Phil]

Just now, spiritual dreams said:

words and concepts. where is this going?

You’re saying essentially that there is the thought, acceptance, but that’s just a symbol, for the real acceptance right?

[Mandy]

27 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

Well I definitely am. It's difficult to focus on what I want without attachment precisely because I don't have it. And by focusing on it, I might get it in the future.

Often when you think you're thinking about what you want, you're focused on the absence of it instead. When you do think of what you want, it feels great. When you think of the absence of it, no so much. 

27 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

Yes and yes. It's absolutely terrifying.

I got really annoyed with my mom because it felt like she never got excited about anything and when I did, she wanted to be supportive but could never join me in the excitement, like she was scared for me. I decided one time to just ask her why she was like that. I never forgot her answer. She said that when she was a kid she went to a birthday party and they got these ducky birthday favors. She was so excited she ran around saying "ducky! ducky! ducky! and ran headfirst into a metal pole. She said she "learned" not to get excited about things anymore, lest she be like a foolish child and run into a pole. 

 

Here's the conclusion she and so many of us make. Excitement + Joy = loss of control = bad thing happening. 

 

No. The math does not work out. 

 

Excitement + Joy = realizing there was no control ever to begin with

 

Bad thing happening = My premature judgement of a past or unreal thing in ignoring my now potential for excitement, joy and appreciation.

 

We believe that if we look out for bad things we can prevent them from happening to us. When we are aware, we are looking at where we want to go and we go there. When we beware, we look at what we don't want and we also tend to go right for it, like staring too long at a car in the opposite traffic lane. In your case it's not the specific circumstance you're going toward, but just the suffering itself. There is no control in being aware, there is the belief in control in the bewareing. It doesn't matter what party favors the universe gives you, if all you can remember is running into a metal poll, you'll never enjoy a moment of it. 

 

You just gotta take your ducky party favor and run with it anyway. That's life. We're all vulnerable. You wouldn't want it any other way. 

 

Highly suggest this video. 

 

 

 

[spiritual dreams]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

You’re saying essentially that there is the thought, acceptance, but that’s just a symbol, for the real acceptance right?

yes pretty much

[Phil]

1 minute ago, spiritual dreams said:

yes pretty much

And then when asked what is the actual acceptance which the concept points to, you are at a loss, yes?

 

[spiritual dreams]

2 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Often when you think you're thinking about what you want, you're focused on the absence of it instead. When you do think of what you want, it feels great. When you think of the absence of it, no so much. 

I got really annoyed with my mom because it felt like she never got excited about anything and when I did, she wanted to be supportive but could never join me in the excitement, like she was scared for me. I decided one time to just ask her why she was like that. I never forgot her answer. She said that when she was a kid she went to a birthday party and they got these ducky birthday favors. She was so excited she ran around saying "ducky! ducky! ducky! and ran headfirst into a metal poll. She said she "learned" not to get excited about things anymore. 

 

Excitement + Joy = loss of control = bad thing happening. 

 

No. Math does not work out. False equation. 

 

Excitement + Joy = realizing there was no control ever to begin with

 

Bad thing happening = My premature judgement of a past or unreal thing in ignoring my now.

 

We believe that if we look out for bad things we can prevent them from happening to us. When we are aware, we are looking at where we want to go and we go there. When we beware, we look at what we don't want and we also tend to go right for it, like staring too long at a car in the opposite traffic lane. In your case it's not the specific circumstance you're going toward, but just the suffering itself. There is no control in being aware, there is the belief in control in the bewareing. It doesn't matter what party favors the universe gives you, if all you can remember is running into a metal poll, you'll never enjoy a moment of it. 

 

You just gotta take your ducky party favor and run with it anyway. That's life. We're all vulnerable. You wouldn't want it any other way. 

 

Highly suggest this video. 

What your saying makes logical sense to me. I am aware that I have no control over the outcomes and worrying about things beyond my control is pointless and detrimental. However, some of the extreme suffering overrides this logic. I am aware that being afraid and resisting is going to have no effect on whether anything bad happening to me yet I can't help it.

[spiritual dreams]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

And then when asked what is the actual acceptance which the concept points to, you are at a loss, yes?

I am able to access certain levels of it but it is limited as I cannot accept everything. But communicating it requires concepts.

[Mandy]

@spiritual dreams That's why we harp on the emotional scale so much around here. You can pick a better feeling thought, but you can't expect yourself to make a huge leap. 

 

What emotion does it feel like when you're focused on these things? 

[Phil]

43 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

I am able to access certain levels of it but it is limited as I cannot accept everything. But communicating it requires concepts.

You’re stating acceptance is a symbolic concept which points to something more fundamental. 

When asked what the real or actual acceptance is, what the more fundamental thing is, you don’t actually know. 

Yet, you’re claiming you’re accessing levels of acceptance. 

Is that accurate?

[spiritual dreams]

56 minutes ago, Phil said:

When asked what the real or actual acceptance is, what the more fundamental thing is, you don’t actually know. 

I do know what it is. I am able to access levels of acceptance to a certain degree. But communicating it to you requires concepts.

[Phil]

Just now, spiritual dreams said:

I do know what it is. I am able to access levels of acceptance to a certain degree. But communicating it to you requires concepts.

What is it? 

[spiritual dreams]

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

@spiritual dreams That's why we harp on the emotional scale so much around here. You can pick a better feeling thought, but you can't expect yourself to make a huge leap. 

 

What emotion does it feel like when you're focused on these things? 

Probably fear/despair/powerlessness.

[spiritual dreams]

Just now, Phil said:

What is it? 

Conceptually speaking, it is the letting go of resistance towards reality and the present moment. I feel like we're going around in circles. Are you doing that zen thing where you ask me confusing shit to try and break my conceptual mind?

[Blessed2]

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

I'm talking about the stuff that eckhart tolle, alan watts etc. talk about.

 

What does Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts talk about?

 

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

I've had temporary states where I realised all suffering is an illusion

 

Why are you not having such state but permanent?

 

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

That is probably true in the absolute sense but

 

"Yeah, it's probably true that the earth is round but that wouldn't be much comfort when someone is falling down from the edge of the world."

 

Mentioning "true in the absolute sense" sounds a bit familiar too. As if there was absolute truths and relative truths and it's just useless neo-advaitan nonsense to point out beliefs.

 

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

Yes this is an illusion, but its one that is difficult to transcend. even if there is no self to transcend it.

 

There is a misunderstanding as to what "transcending" means.

 

It might be a bit like you're assuming "transcending" means building a new floor to your house above the previous one and moving up there. As if "transcending" meant something similar as "moving upward".

 

But it's really more like demolishing the house. As in "transcending" meaning going inward.

 

I'd reframe "transcending" as "letting go beliefs". It's not really "hard" to dispel belief in Santa Claus, is it?

 

"Transcending Santa Claus" sounds a bit weird though, doesn't it?

[Phil]

28 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

Conceptually speaking, it is the letting go of resistance towards reality and the present moment. I feel like we're going around in circles. Are you doing that zen thing where you ask me confusing shit to try and break my conceptual mind?

You’re saying you know what acceptance actually is, not just the concept. 

So I asked you, what is it?

And your answer is “conceptually speaking…”. 

 

And yet, you’re saying we’re going around in circles, and I’m confusing you…? 

 

 

[spiritual dreams]

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

What does Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts talk about?

 

suffering is an illusion, there is no self, be in the present moment, nonresistance. etc.

 

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

Why are you not having such state but permanent?

If I knew that I wouldn't be on here...

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

"Yeah, it's probably true that the earth is round but that wouldn't be much comfort when someone is falling down from the edge of the world."

 

Mentioning "true in the absolute sense" sounds a bit familiar too. As if there was absolute truths and relative truths and it's just useless neo-advaitan nonsense to point out beliefs.

A better analogy would be: 'its true that the earth is round but in my everyday life, the distances are so small that I might as well think of it as flat'

 

The absolute truth is that torture doesn't exist. The relative truth is that if someone hooked a car battery to your balls, it would hurt...

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

I'd reframe "transcending" as "letting go beliefs". It's not really "hard" to dispel belief in Santa Claus, is it?

 

 

Yes that's what im trying to do but it's hard to let go of the belief that torture, rape and genocide are bad. Not for a logical reason but from a deeper underlying fear. I am well aware of the logic of all of this. But letting go is not a logical decision but an emotional one.

 

 

 

[spiritual dreams]

53 minutes ago, Phil said:

You’re saying you know what acceptance actually is, not just the concept. 

So I asked you, what is it?

And your answer is “conceptually speaking…”. 

 

And yet, you’re saying we’re going around in circles, and I’m confusing you…? 

If I knew what it was, how could I communicate it to you without concepts? Any answer I give you has to be conceptual because I have to use words to get them across. I can't telepathically beam my understanding to you can I?

[Phil]

1 minute ago, spiritual dreams said:

If I knew what it was, how could I communicate it to you without concepts?

Any answer I give you has to be conceptual because I have to use words to get them across. I can't telepathically beam my understanding to you can I?

I would just check direct experience. Check perception and sensation, see if anything can be found to acceptance, other than the thought / concept. 

 

[spiritual dreams]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

I would just check direct experience. Check perception and sensation, see if anything can be found to acceptance, other than the thought / concept. 

I mean, there is but I can't exactly telepathically communicate it to you. It's ineffable

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

I mean, there is but I can't exactly telepathically communicate it to you. It's ineffable

Is the acceptance in perception, or sensation, or both?