What "Triggers" You?

[Links]

On 2/10/2023 at 3:03 PM, Mandy said:

A couple weeks ago I suffered some because I interpreted that my male friend is allowed to be patient and sell his used vehicles for what they are truly worth because he takes on much less risk as a male meeting strangers on the internet and therefore does not hesitate to do so, where the whole situation of selling a car makes me uncomfortable enough that I'm willing to sell the car for much less rather than risk my safety or put myself in a situation where I feel insecure. It feels bad to believe that men have the upper hand, the strength, the safety, the security, the assumed unquestioned right to be able to focus on their career without a huge interrupt or total sacrifice of it if they also desire to become a parent. It makes me think that I'm worth-less which feels bad. 

 

But it's true, right? That's nature, that's how "it is" right? Why does it feel bad to focus/think like this? 

 

Isn't in interesting that men can view that the status quo or the feminist groups or the perception that society/government has the upper hand and wants to favor women in the way I feel men are naturally favored in the world as described above? 

 

Going to the root of things, isn't it exactly the same thing? Aren't both sides doing exactly as you described above? 

 

When I'm focused on lack or unwanted and refuse to turn to what I DO want, that feels bad. Isn't it true that when I refuse to focus on the beautiful opportunities I've got here now that I totally dismiss, ignore and therefore do not actually take advantage of them?

 

We do carry a lot of stories about life that are generalisations, such as men are like this, women are like that, feminists say the other etc. Even if they are statistically true on average, it can put a discordant background colouring to seeing the actual situation clearly. And I don't know about you, but for me the negative stories are more prominent than positive ones, perhaps I have a vigilance about assessing a situation rather than entering it open mindedly. After all, the real situation may or may not conform to the stereotypes in the stories. 

[WhiteOwl]

21 hours ago, Mandy said:

👍 Gotcha, but at the same time I'd question it and I'd give thought and write about what you do want. A lot can come from just writing what you don't want down then writing the wanted aspects.

Sure, i do my best. I don't really find that belief discordant or negative though. Of course "life" or experience has difficulties or obstacles. In the ultimate sense there are none, but there are many situations where it will feel even more discordant to not see it as a difficulty (could use a different word), like losing loved ones or the earthquake in turkey. And again there are no loved ones or earthquakes, but well.. 

 

[WhiteOwl]

18 hours ago, Serenity said:

Anyway, sexism for me on regular basis looks like this:

 

- Having men that fill entitled to better knowledge, better understanding, better everything,  while they are less competent than I am in a particular domain. Sometimes, it is so absurd I can't help but wonder how such audacity is possible. 

- Misogynistic views and behaviors being thrown casually as if it's part of the landscape

- Having to shrink myself/ walk on eggshells to protect a male's ego

- Being talked over

- Being ignored

- Being objectified

- Having to suffer rude, dominance behavior of all kinds, because an environment enable males to behave this way without pushing back

- Having men taking advantage of sexist collective biases to punish me unconsciously or consciously because they can't exert dominance otherwise

- Growing up, schooling biases towards the masculine perspective which was completely seen as the default perspective (but really, I should just say this goes far beyond school). Can't giggle enough at the idea of one of my middle school teacher assigning us all to read let's Pride and Prejudice instead of some regular male author. 

- Men calling a female perspective feminism, not questioning whether they also have a equivalent perspective that gets unnamed or is called normality 

- Being gaslit on the relevance of feminism

- Men expecting me to take an interest in their hobbies, talk about their favorite subjects, watch their favorite movies, be excellent at doing dude's stuff,  while they can't reciprocate and hardly even pretend to be interested in whatever they see as feminine.

- Men not consuming any to much content on feminism, yet thinking they understand it better than me (probably having read several dozen books on the matter at least, as well as countless video essays and documentaries). Or if they do so, it's like coming from reactionary figures as such a Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate. 

 

I don't doubt for one second you experience it like this and i'm sorry to hear, and surely some of it is valid. But what comes to mind when you write that you've read countless books and watched videos about feminism and how deeply its rooted in everything, is that you start to see things that you weren't able to see before, which many other people never "see" or have in their awareness. Like, if you zoom in on a piece of grass, a whole universe opens up and there will always be more to be discovered. The same way about everything else, which can be fantastic when looking at interesting things like a piece of grass, or in my case music, but can also make things "difficult" like when i try to fix "myself" and my flaws. There will always be more, its endless. You can "train" your mind to look for anything. Recently i was looking at a really funny guy i know and wondering how we comes up with his humour so quick on the spot again and again, but a lot of it also comes down to him having trained his mind to scan for opportunities to be funny etc. 

It sounds like you are training your mind to look for those things, so if that is whats focused upon when wanting close relations, it seems logical that you find it difficult. 

I am not saying you are wrong, but your beliefs tend to show up in front of you, again and again. 

 

I also experience a lot of your mentioned points by the way, mostly done by men sure, but not in all cases. Men dominate each other, talk over etc, just as much as they do to women. I try to stick to the people that doesn't do it though and luckily they are not difficult to find where i am from. 

 

Only trying to give a different perspective, not start a discussion. I learn a lot from reading your post, so thank you. Hoping to see things clearly in my own life. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Reena]

On 2/11/2023 at 3:24 AM, Mandy said:

👍 Can't understand what you fear.

Yup. 

[Serenity]

17 hours ago, WhiteOwl said:

 

I don't doubt for one second you experience it like this and i'm sorry to hear, and surely some of it is valid. But what comes to mind when you write that you've read countless books and watched videos about feminism and how deeply its rooted in everything, is that you start to see things that you weren't able to see before, which many other people never "see" or have in their awareness. Like, if you zoom in on a piece of grass, a whole universe opens up and there will always be more to be discovered. The same way about everything else, which can be fantastic when looking at interesting things like a piece of grass, or in my case music, but can also make things "difficult" like when i try to fix "myself" and my flaws. There will always be more, its endless. You can "train" your mind to look for anything. Recently i was looking at a really funny guy i know and wondering how we comes up with his humour so quick on the spot again and again, but a lot of it also comes down to him having trained his mind to scan for opportunities to be funny etc. 

It sounds like you are training your mind to look for those things, so if that is whats focused upon when wanting close relations, it seems logical that you find it difficult. 

I am not saying you are wrong, but your beliefs tend to show up in front of you, again and again. 

 

I also experience a lot of your mentioned points by the way, mostly done by men sure, but not in all cases. Men dominate each other, talk over etc, just as much as they do to women. I try to stick to the people that doesn't do it though and luckily they are not difficult to find where i am from. 

 

So, it is not a situation where I project a perspective of my own creation on reality, as in the case of confirmation bias for example, but the observation of what is.

 

A confirmation bias leads to dead ends, whereas a correct analysis of things opens the way to system thinking. To understand feminism is to see how things are intertwined at different levels, with the result that there is evidence of seeing things correctly in everyday life.

 

Feminism is nothing more than talking about the experience of being a woman or more generally about feminity. It is not a belief, it is not a problem that needs to be corrected. It is simply the fact that women can be, speak freely about what they experience, what they see, without being subjected to forms of invalidation, of violence, so that they are silenced and forced to accept the perspective and needs of men instead of their own.

 

And this way of suppressing the voice of women and the agenda of emancipation of the feminine from the yoke of toxic masculinity, comes in different ways, very often from men who don't realize how they unconsciously perpetuate through a cultural karma of patterns what contribute to the decredibilization of feminism.

 

Typically, any type of discussion that revolves around questions like "is feminism valid?" or "are you sure what you're experiencing is true?" is basically a way of questioning the legitimacy of women's experience and voices indirectly. It's also a way to blend that perspective back into the dominating masculine perspective instead.  And there is a lot of power in narrative/perspective control, which is why it shouldn't be let to happen.

 

From my experience, the overwhelming majority of men do not remotely try to listen, read or attempt to understand what feminism is really about. But they have an opinion on it, and very often this opinion is really not very informed. A lot of the time, the sourcing will come from other men criticizing how feminism take something crucial from men as a group.

 

But feminism is actually both for men and women, because men and women are psychologically androgynous. And men are, as you mentioned, also the victim of the collective repressed feminine archetype in their own experience. And it manifest in many ways, which you could be made aware of if you'd dig into more details into the subject. 😀

 

18 hours ago, WhiteOwl said:

Only trying to give a different perspective, not start a discussion. I learn a lot from reading your post, so thank you. Hoping to see things clearly in my own life. 

 

You are welcome. I appreciate your openmindedness (it's very refreshing).

[WhiteOwl]

@Serenity like i said, it wasnt to go into a discussion about wether fiminism is valid or not. Treating people equally does not depend on the information you just put out. If all of the assumptions and beliefs you wrte is creating what you want in your life and interactions then its all good. Just sounds like it causes a lot of negativity/stress/disconnection etc

[Serenity]

@WhiteOwl

1 hour ago, WhiteOwl said:

@Serenity like i said, it wasnt to go into a discussion about wether fiminism is valid or not. Treating people equally does not depend on the information you just put out. If all of the assumptions and beliefs you wrte is creating what you want in your life and interactions then its all good. Just sounds like it causes a lot of negativity/stress/disconnection etc

 

When it comes to that matter, I am not going to take the blame for the disconnection which occur in the environment I evolve in, nor for my personal relationships.

 

The negativity, stress and disconnection that is the consequence of it, is a baked in feature. It is also a very well documented problem in both academic feminism and esoteric feminism. The feminine and the masculine are currently disconnected/misaligned one from another on a global cultural karma level.

 

And I notice that  a lot of women try to connect and put a lot of effort in explaining, while often it is men who do not engage, or are not receptive to what is being said. My experience is that the men around me pull off, and I lose them when it comes to bringing them into the feminine. 

 

But I suppose there are indeed lots of ways in which the frustration this situation begets can be diminished. This got a lot of room for improvement on my side and it is a great way to learn unconditional love, forgiveness and patience 😄. But often, it just hurts. Because there is this deep longing for unity and harmony in each of us.

 

[WhiteOwl]

43 minutes ago, Serenity said:

When it comes to that matter, I am not going to take the blame for the disconnection which occur in the environment I evolve in, nor for my personal relationships.

I wouldnt blame yorself for it either, but maybe try a different approach unless you like how it feels. I experience some of the same “symptoms” with people, but i am completely sure that i am the only one who can change that. If i have to wait for the world to act in accordance with how i think it should i will be miserable forever. If you want to change another you need to change yourself.

“But this is different, this really is the way i believe it is”. Everyone thinks so.. better to try to create what you want instead of being stubborn with your beliefs. Works with feminism as with anything else, sorry to say. I say that to myself as well. 

[Serenity]

14 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

“But this is different, this really is the way i believe it is”. Everyone thinks so.. better to try to create what you want instead of being stubborn with your beliefs. Works with feminism as with anything else, sorry to say. I say that to myself as well. 

Being a woman is not a belief. Experiencing life as a woman, and thus coming from a female perspective is how I talk to you.

 

Though if I am fair, from the absolute, I am not really a woman. I am the one consciousness.

[WhiteOwl]

@Serenity

10 minutes ago, Serenity said:

Being a woman is not a belief. Experiencing life as a woman, and thus coming from a female perspective is how I talk to you.

 All “women” luckily dont share your perspective of the world, which should tell you something. The same way that every “man” doesn’t share mine. Most females on the planet would have ablesolutely no idea what you are talking about if they read this. But how does it feel though? Anyways Thanks for the chat, i dont have anymore to offer than that☺️

[Links]

By the way, when we say "triggering" do we agree what this means? A trigger is a lever which sets off a process, but maybe we have a variety of processes - which could  be pleasant or unpleasant. 
 
The discussion of feminism has reminded me of something else which triggers my pedantry is when the meaning of words are changed away from their original consistent derivation and we are all supposed to go along with it. And I am particularly noticing this in progressive or left-leaning political language. Some examples: 

-ism. Meaning something like "suffix used to form the name of a system, school of thought or theory based on the name of its subject or object or alternatively on the name of its founder" Eg Buddhism is the religion of the Buddha.  But since the 20th C has been altered in certain circumstances to mean "Used to form names of ideologies expressing belief in the superiority of a certain class" Or in common usage, discrimination on the basis of.  So, feminism deriving from feminine+ism would have originally meant the school of thought about femininity. Not implying any particular beliefs about misogyny, patriarchy etc.  Other examples are sexism, racism, classism.  

 

-ist is similar to the above, when used for a person who belongs or believes in the school of thought. Ie a Buddhist is a member of the Buddhist religion. But in certain political discourse, this gets changed to mean an accusation of discrimination such as racist or sexist. 
  
-phobia which means an irrational fear but can change its meaning in certain arenas to mean discrimination against.  Why do we use words like homophobia, transphobia or Islamophobia, when what is being described is some outward behaviour not the inner motivation, which is often unknown? 

 

Antisemitism is another current one where the term Semite originally means a whole language family, but is altered to just Hebrew speakers. But the -ism suffix isn't being used in the new way here, instead they're using the Anti- prefix. If we did the same thing in my other examples it'd create some confusion, such as antiracism meaning what is commonly meant by racism, if you get my drift.
 

[Serenity]

13 hours ago, WhiteOwl said:

@Serenity

 All “women” luckily dont share your perspective of the world, which should tell you something. The same way that every “man” doesn’t share mine. Most females on the planet would have ablesolutely no idea what you are talking about if they read this. 

 

I do not see how the fact that most women "do not share my perspective" should tell me something. 

 

Comparing myself to the others, or you to every man is irrelevant the moment one is able to understand that awareness and knowledge is not equally distributed. 

 

The perspective I come from is rather rare to find in the world, as I'd pegged it as a Yellow/Turquoise take. I didn't invent anything myself, there are  plenty of other women who shared their experience and POV and highly influenced mine. 

 

But you'll meet in your life as a Scandinavian man a lot of stage Green feminism, and looking at your take, you haven't really integrated any of the knowledge that is widely available for instance in universities on the matter. And while they aren't familiar with the meta model I am using, the systemic and widespread influence of patriarchy in everyone's life experience and psyche is very well known and documented in these environment.

 

Also, without having to resort to a formal education, there are a lot of women who get interested in understanding their experience and fall into the rabbit hole of the femininst POV. and just like the rest of stage Green perspective, it has gained a lot of awareness in the last years.

14 hours ago, WhiteOwl said:

But how does it feel though? Anyways Thanks for the chat, i dont have anymore to offer than that☺️

I made a post earlier about how I feel about this. The conversation I have with you follow the pattern I described earlier. 

[WhiteOwl]

56 minutes ago, Serenity said:

 

I do not see how the fact that most women "do not share my perspective" should tell me something. 

I see, we are not really on the same page. To try again; Your perspectives determines how you feel, and if you don't like your feelings, maybe look at your perspectives. That many women don't share neither your perspectives or feelings could therefor tell you something, if better feelings and connection were the wish. That doesn't look like denying that sexism exist btw, or being blind to it.

56 minutes ago, Serenity said:

The perspective I come from is rather rare to find in the world, as I'd pegged it as a Yellow/Turquoise take.

Us peasants can't reach you, sorry. 

56 minutes ago, Serenity said:

But you'll meet in your life as a Scandinavian man a lot of stage Green feminism, and looking at your take, you haven't really integrated any of the knowledge that is widely available for instance in universities on the matter. And while they aren't familiar with the meta model I am using, the systemic and widespread influence of patriarchy in everyone's life experience and psyche is very well known and documented in these environment.

You need to study "the matter" on universities to treat people equally? Damn we are going to have a problem on this planet 😄 

Edited February 13, 2023 by WhiteOwl

[Serenity]

25 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

I see, we are not really on the same page. To try again; Your perspectives determines how you feel, and if you don't like your feelings, maybe look at your perspectives. That many women don't share neither your perspectives or feelings could therefor tell you something, if better feelings and connection were the wish. That doesn't look like denying that sexism exist btw, or being blind to it.

 

I understand what you are writing here, and I have already addressed these points earlier in the discussion.

 

25 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

Us peasants can't reach you, sorry. 

 

If you look at the spiral dynamic model, this is where the content I am referring to originates.

So it has nothing to do with some ego inflation. You can check it for yourself, and I would be glad to give you some references.

 

28 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

You need to study "the matter" on universities to treat people equally? Damn we are going to have a problem on this planet 😄 

 

I have never said that one need to study the matter in universities to treat people equally. So this is a strawman argument you are making, in order to convince yourself that I am being pedantic and elitist.

 

But you have to understand that a lot of people discover for the first time in more depth a reality they didn't fully see in these type of environment. If you check out content on the spiral dynamic model, colleges are a catalyser for the stage Green vMeme to emerge.

 

And the aim of studying this type of matters is to gain a better understanding on the subject and a better awareness of our own biases. Because unconscious biases of all kinds are responsible for social inequalities. Also while you don't need it to remove these biases, awareness needs to come through on these biases one way to the other. 

 

And these are very pernicious because most people holding biases do not understand or realize that they are being biased. So, gaining knowledge through education is a path towards bias removal when it comes to social issues. And my point was that a lot of women in Scandinavia do share the perspective that sexism is a systemic issue, unlike how you were implying that I was at odds with them. The Green vMeme is very present in this region.

 

From what I have noticed , some people just have little bias and treat people equally because they are anyway wired toward oneness, understanding and openmindedness. Biased people usually have something at stake to hold on to their biases, which is why they have more difficulties. For instance, sexism has to do a lot about how men feel about themselves and how they feel unworthy or unappreciated deep within.

 

[Joseph Maynor]

We're triggered when someone attacks our ego or reveals out shadow to our face.  So triggering is useful to see who someone really is and what they try to repress.  Sometimes we just need to find out what other people are made of.  This is where triggering can be useful.  It's a form of Chaos in the "working with" or marriage or wiggle or wobble in the Chaos vs./and Order duality.  I replaced wobble with wiggle, it's ok to laugh too.  Laughing is an aspect of Transcendence.  Being light is part of it too.  Heavy is one side of the light vs./and heavy duality.

Edited February 15 by Joseph Maynor

[WhiteOwl]

18 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I am triggered when someone attacks my ego or reveals my shadow to my face.  So triggering is useful to see who i really am and what i try to repress.  Sometimes i just need to find out what i am made of.  This is where triggering can be useful. 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

When you get triggered, you wage unnecessary warfare against other perspectives.

When I get triggered, I wage unnecessary warfare against other perspectives.

 

When we get triggered, we wage unnecessary warfare against other perspectives.

 

When they get triggered, they wage unnecessary warfare against other perspectives.

//

 

When thing (I) gets triggered, it wages unnecessary warfare against some relation of things (we).

Edited February 15 by Joseph Maynor

[Reena]

If I ate a cookie every time I was triggered I would be 200 pounds heavier.

[Joseph Maynor]

Challenge what someone sees as precious to them and you'll find out what ego and shadow are.