Shame Vs Guilt

[Phil]

1 hour ago, MetaSage said:

But what are they? How do they come about? This doesn't seem to answer what these are and how and why they occur.

 

What are their components? How do you create them out of nothing? What is the experience called guilt? What is the one called shame?

 

These must be contemplated by each of us individually. 

What would you add to this ⬇️ to make it more specific / insightful?

On 1/15/2023 at 11:51 AM, Phil said:

 

 

Shame is a thought.      

Guilt is an emotion. 

 

 

 

Shame is a thought - about a self - that does not exist. 

Guilt is an emotion - felt by - the self which is existence. 

 

 

 

Shame is only the thought; ‘shame’. 

Guilt is not only the thought, ‘guilt’. 

 

 

 

Shame is not an emotion. 

Guilt is an emotion. 

 

 

 

Expression of shame is expression of a concept, about a non-existent self. 

Expression of guilt is expression of an emotion, which is felt. 

 

 

 

 

 

Shame is a thought loop;

A thought about a non-existent self…

and…

Shame, shaming, shamed, ashamed or shameful.

 

 

 

 

Emotional expression is the dispelling of self referential beliefs. 

Of thought loops.

Of self deception.

Of suffering. 

Of discord.

 

Self is infinite love. 

Infinite can not know finite. 

 

[MetaSage]

@Phil Calling them thought and emotion doesn't say much.

 

They can occur due to you holding the possibility of a past. They exist in relationship to the past. As emotions, they are rooted in thought. They are conceptual by nature. In the experience of shame, there seems to be a certain unwillingness that I don't yet quite get. There might be some pain in there, too, likely as a result of our common disposition of aversion towards experiencing them.

 

Shame as an experience shows up radically different from, say, happiness or boredom, even though they are based on concept, on an emotionally-charged thought.

 

How come they show up differently? What do the differences consist of? What allows or creates both?

 

Looking into one's experience of them is key. Even if what you say is true, how can we know? If each of us don't grasp what they are in our own experience, it inevitably becomes a matter of believing.

[Phil]

Sorry… I meant in relation to this…

3 hours ago, MetaSage said:

But what are they? How do they come about? This doesn't seem to answer what these are and how and why they occur.

 

What are their components? How do you create them out of nothing? What is the experience called guilt? What is the one called shame?

 

These must be contemplated by each of us individually. 

From having contemplated what was found?

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, MetaSage said:

@Phil Calling them thought and emotion doesn't say much.

 

Spinoza would say that each emotion has a thought component and each thought has an emotion component.  One of his biggest arguments is that if you have more true thoughts a lot of the emotions drop away because they're based on confused thoughts -- they're the flip side to confused ideas.  He called those passions and made a distinction between those and emotions.  Passions because they're passively tied to confused ideas.  Emotions for Spinoza are the flip side to true ideas.